The first time the "Black Widow" trope became clear to me was viewing Survivor Micronesia: Fan vs. Favorites. The 4 women band together and vote out the remaining male competitors one by one..I was increasingly uncomfortable with how production played up that the women purposely used their sexuality and that there was something mistrustful and nefarious about their strategy...what I took from those episodes is that smart women are scary. Instead of the women simply being intelligent for their "girl power" they were scheming, treacherous, and devious. Yet in each season there tends to be a natural male leader who controls the voting with other close male sidekicks [the just finished season with Rob & Grant) and that's portrayed as natural, commanding leadership. It is insidious because this discourse portrays that women who attempt to take initiative and start plotting are tricky and paradoxically, unfeminine.

So what are the interesting differences between the black widow and the incubus or playboy out to steal a girl's innocence? They are two sides of the same coin, of the evil seducer.

I guess that the succubus is always trying to seduce the helpless man in order to convince him to do something else... to get what she wants. Whereas the incubus in general is only after the seduction itself.

I would say that, in general, male or female, in media someone using sexuality to get what they want is generally portrayed in a negative light - unless it is the single protagonist him or herself, in which case it is clever and the person being seduced is obviously an idiot.

The first time the “The Evil Demon Woman” trope became clear to me was in Middle School. When I was reading Homer's epic, "The Odyssey."

Seriously, how can she glance over one of the earliest manifestations, and perhaps the origin, of this trope? But yeah, the origin of this is most definitely not some biologist that was 90% wrong, but one of our histories most famous pieces of literature, "The Odyssey," the concept of sirens, and the old old folklore of Succubi and Incubi.

I've long felt that this trope stems from a time when women were denied any power whatsoever *except* through men, and therefore through their sexuality. So I saw it as a story aimed at cutting off the last power women had, making male domination still more complete.

So now it's misogynistic *and* obsolete.

Is it really true that most homo sapiens sapiens, especially of the male gender, cannot recognize the difference between fantasy and reality?

I lost all interest in the video as soon as she described the movie character as a "sexy college co-ed." Okay, maybe the video narrator was using that term in an ironic way, but, seriously? Are we still using that word in this day and age?

Paul wrote:

"So now it’s misogynistic *and* obsolete."

This is true not only for the trope being described but also for the term co-ed. Please, can folks stop using it as a serious term?

If trope is focusing on supernatural females, it doesn't really reinforce stereotypes are human females. While I could see this trope being problematic if it was common, it really isn't common--at least not more common than women who actually use their sexuality for power. It's not that I think most women use their sexuality as a form of power, I just don't think it's portrayed all that often on film.

The thing about these tropes is that there is nothing inherently wrong with any of them. It's when they overwhelm typical female roles that they become a problem.

The Venus Flytrap didn't remind her of a woman? Its what it says on the tin :) Well, ok, not ALL of a woman.

I still think Jon Tweet's point, that if you reversed the genders of the trope, you'd still have something misogynistic. Stupid women being deceived by a seductive man-demon would ALSO be a negative portrayal of women.

http://www.jonathantweet.com/jotgamemisogyny.html

Sarkeesian's analysis of what men "get out of" the trope is too simplistic. The world is a bigger place than this. There's also a message that sexuality is can be dangerous and risky. Which is kinda true, emotionally and physically. Its a parable about risks and rewards and the unknown.

The worst part of this is how well this myth has settled into the public conciousness. There are actually epople out there who think that sex workers are taking advatantage of men! And that's only the the extreme end, with the myth of women choosing men for their wallets being the most common one. I cannot be stressed enough how untrue this myth is, because there are obviously people out there who still believe it.

As M said, the worst part of the trope is that a lot of people grow up believing in it. Men think women are out to get them for their wallets or for their sperm so they can have babies, or both - and women learn that their sexuality is the only kind of power they can wield in socially acceptable ways, disadvantaging them in the workplace and in their personal relationships.

I am kind of shocked that anyone is seriously trying to argue that tropes which apply primarily to supernatural creatures cannot reinforce stereotypes of humans.

I've never really liked the "X like you give X a bad name" argument. It limits the power of people in X group; men are still free to use their sexuality without "giving men a bad name". I's a trope that comes up a lot, the idea that any (for example) woman has a responsibility to all women to provide a good example of a woman in order in order to overcome sexism. The whole thing makes me uncomfortable; it ends up blaming the women who buy into the stereotype and use their sexuality to get ahead for the whole thing against them.

I find it funny this post came up as I was thinking about the persona in Persona 4. Incubus (sleeps with women) and Succubus (sleeps with men), along with Lilim (offspring of Lilith who also sleeps with men). Succubus is a curvy woman with wings and lingere(sp?). Lilim is also an attractive and enticing figure. Incubus, however, is this trollish figure, not attractive in the least. And has a rather obvious devilish protusion from his thong.

What was Atlus trying to say exactly? Men can idulge in a sexual fantasy, but women ouught not to? Its one of the few problematic features in a game that is pretty progressive about being true to yourself and others.

Also consider Mara, another persona in the same game. In myth, he tempts Buddah with his many daughters. In the game, he's represented as a giant monsterous phallic chariot... So, yeah...

The stereotype about women and female sexuality is deeply rooted in most patriarchal cultures.
In most cultures of that type - women are other, so everything connected with them is mysterious or even evil, including their sexuality.
There has been hundreds of texts written trying to present the women as other as something scientific, not just devaluing people, so they could be used and treated like objects.
The whole thing with 'the praying mantis', "black widow' and so on is comparison to animals, dehumanising people and that trope is alive and well ('cougars' anyone?).

Venus Flytraps and Black Widows are not insects.

I don't appreciate you breaking one of the ten commandments while calling women stupid. My ex that I had became one with passed away in 2017. Three and a half years after his death I became posessed after seeing a hypnosis, and he lied to me telling me the person I loved was still here following me around. I started wondering about it and communicated with Nathan or at least started trying just incase he was. A demon deceived me the entire time. It came walking down my hallway, and after going though spiritual warfare with this demon it jumped into my body. I've been posessed now for over two years. There's a succubus, and an incubus it communicates with, because it called them by that one day while I was showing. Imagine sexual harassment everyday all day. They sexual harass me everytime I take off my clothes. They taunt me attempting to get me to masterbate to demons. I can't have a sex life whatsoever, because the demon inside me trys to get me to imagine having sex with a demon. It tells me other demons are watching of I ever have sex. It says hail satan if I ever have sex. I resist any mastermastion, and ask my father, and Jesus christ to forgive me for any sins I do everyday. I pray all day. I use what is taught by the word rebuking them in the name of Jesus christ. They flee, and come back even know I have faith. I want to be free, and it says in the Bible captives are supposed to be set free. God commands that for priest that specialize in this. I've been trying to call around to find somebody to help me that's even extremely hard to do. I don't appreciate not only the demons, but while I'm studying more so I can tell my story to the priest of which ones have been speaking to me knowing they are sex demons... that I'm not only mocked by demons every moment though out the day even in my sleep I can hear them, but now I'm mocked by you as well. It says in the Bible if we ask for forgiveness we are forgiven though Jesus christ. Spiritual warfare isn't stupid