I didn't know lids could be glued back like that. The more you know! I have heard of women who have undergone the eyelid surgery using Circle Lenses to make their pupils appear larger. They apparently help to counter the wide-eyed look that raising the top eye lid might cause.

Sigh. This broke my heart. Our society pounds the white woman as the beauty ideal into the heads of women of color, and eventually many of them resort to this to be considered "beautiful." It's similar to black women bleaching their skin.

Me too, Amy. There's something profoundly sad about the whole idea.

My invisible knapsack feels WAY heaver after watching this video.

Amy, is this similar to pale white women tanning to get more bronze?

Or hairy white women bleaching, waxing, and shaving their upper lips and armpits?

My point is simple: that there is no universally held ideal, and white women are absolutely hurt by this too. So, take your race-warfare elsewhere, please.

Um, Duran, I didn't see any "race warfare" -- I saw a pretty concise comment about beauty ideals.

You're right that there are many types of white women who *don't* fit the ideal, but there are ZERO women of color who fit the ideal. Because the ideal IS white. If you're denying that then....I don't know, you live in some kind of fantasy world I'd like to visit sometime.

Back to the original post: This is so fraking bizarre I'm basically staring at it like this: O.O. Which was my response the last time I saw a blog talking about surgeries to create "Caucasian" eyes on otherwise-Asian folks (probably here on SI). The whole world has lost their gorram minds, I think.

I am curious, though, how this fits in with the fetishization of Asian cultures (& women, specifically) in much of America. Or perhaps we only like our Asian women when they look as non-Asian as possible?

Our society pounds the white woman as the beauty ideal into the heads of women of color, and eventually many of them resort to this to be considered “beautiful.”

This procedure exists just because our society pounds this idea into the heads of woman living in Japan, Korea, and Taiwan? Seems like a somewhat simplistic explanation.

Holy crow, does that hurt!? Watching her jam her eyelid with that pronged tool -- it frightens me!

I don't think it's fair to phrase eyelid glue or even the surgery as a Asian women wanting to look like caucasian/western women. I'm Asian American and like the young woman in the video, I have monolid eyes. I've debated having surgery and tried eyelid tape myself (itchy and noticeable), but it wasn't because I wanted to look less Asian. I think my eyes look droopy because of my heavy monolid, so if I did get surgery, it would be because I'd like to look more awake. I'm not reaching for the 'ideal' of a western, double lidded woman. I know everyone's intentions are different and that there are women who may want to change their image because of society's set of feminine ideals. But not everyone's like that, so leave judgement at the door. I'm sure that there are many Asian and Asian American women who want the surgery or glue or tape while maintaining their ethnic pride. It's a personal choice and it's one that some people may feel pressured to do, while others may freely elect to have it done.

As the Duchess said "If everybod minded their own business, the world would go around a deal faster than it does."

Which is it, folks? Diversity is beautiful or society 'forces' ideals of white beauty?

'White' women (and by extension, white people) can exhibit both uniform and combinations of hair and eye colors that occur across the entire natural spectrum, creating nearly limitless, though insular, diversity.

The same can not be said for the vast majority of the rest of the world. Recessive traits are unique and indeed very rare on a global scale. Thus, desirable. It doesn't take an agenda to push this reality on the global 97% or whatever it is who can not exhibit diversity in hair and eye color due to dominant genetic traits.

Something else to think about: sure, it's stereotypical to portray the 'slant-eyed' Asian - what about the doe eyed Western female? I'm sure you could do many articles about portrayals of white women with eyes wide open, gawking at the world in childlike wonder and confused amazement.

'Choose your battles' is perhaps not the best mantra for sociologists.

Duran, you really get on my nerves.
you know perfectly well no one wants you here -- why don't *you* go elsewhere?

"This procedure exists just because our society pounds this idea into the heads of woman living in Japan, Korea, and Taiwan? Seems like a somewhat simplistic explanation."

Actually, yes. Those Asian countries DO favor some "white" beauty ideals; they even use skin bleaching cream! (Which is toxic) Have you watched anime? A rip off of Disney cartoons. Ever seen an Asian drama? A few times, (but almost in all the shows) the Asian characters are trying to speak English, speaking English and interacting with white people in a "Oh, we're close friends" way. Hello Kitty was "inspired" by Kitty White, from Alice in Wonderland. Loli girl fashion was also probably inspired by Alice in Wonderland. It's the cultural effect of when parts of Asia got "Westernized". How can you not know that?

"Duran, you really get on my nerves.
you know perfectly well no one wants you here — why don’t *you* go elsewhere?"

Yes! I agree - it was so great when the troll Dubi left.

Yoni -- so people in Asian cultures have no agency. Only "we" have agency, and we use Disney cartoons and Alice in Wonderland to brainwash them into doing things they don't want to do. Makes perfect sense to me!

Yoni, just a few things. Anime nowhere near resembles Disney cartoons; they are completely dissimilar in look and theme. Secondly, it's called Sweet Lolita or Gothic Lolita and is inspired by dolls and victorian-era fashion, though references and homages to Alice in Wonderland and other fantasy media are found in the style. Loli girl is typically used on the internet to describe a prepubescent girl (like the "classic" Lolita from Vladimir Nabokov's novel) in animated child porn.

It's not really fair to compare Duran and Dubi. My first exposure to Dubi was when we got into an argument over something stupid, but I eventually learned that he was not a troll and came to appreciate his input. He even gave the blog authors a heads-up that inspired a very interesting post. Not everybody who disagrees is a troll... just people who only visit the blog to throw insults around, diss sociology, and make superficial criticisms that widely miss the mark.

Not all East Asians have monolid eyes, so it's more complex than that. And not all non-Asians have two-fold eyes. Ne-yo, anyone? http://i39.tinypic.com/303brpi.jpg

It sounds like a pity party in here for Asians rather than seeing how white normativity hurts everyone! From having women conform to sexist standards, to non-whites that make up the majority of the world bending over backwards for acceptance, to the inability for those who fit the ideal whiteness to connect with other human beings outside pity, as if they are exalted above humanity themselves. More empathy is needed in some of these comments here.

Being categorized as "white" also holds back my full development as a human being, in part by withering my understanding of and empathy for others, because I’m falsely led to see them as fundamentally, intrinsically different from myself. - Mason D at stuff white people do.

While I agree that women are often targets of "beauty ideals," I don't think this is necessarily a direct indication of "White" beauty ideals. This may have roots from Western marketing, but I think Asians also prize youthfulness and large eyes tend to make people look a bit more childlike. The skin-bleaching, in North East Asia, anyway, may be derived from the sppearances of the historical upperclass or nobility, as opposed to farmers who worked in the sun all day.

I live in South Korea now and it is amazing how much women here avoid the sun and use skin-"brightening" products; I hear that it's even more pronounced in Japan, where women will wear long gloves to keep their arms "fair" as well.

As for anime, I don't think they're rip offs of Disney cartoons. The two have influenced each other, certainly, but common Western (or is it just American?) perspectives of animation definitely put a limit on how we see Japanese (and other) culture's relationship to animated media.

Back to the main point, I think this is an example of how women are generally targetted as consumers by creating dissatisfaction with their bodies. If you look one way, you want to look more like another. If you look that way, then another way is more desirable. It happens for men also, but I think the images and messages of reaching some beautiful, airbrushed, CGI-ed, exotic, girl-next-door, natural-looking, star-studded, glamorous, feminine, bold, soft, innocent, sexy appearance bombard women in so many aspects of their lives that it's part of the social culture, even if the media is avoided.

On topic:

1. I believe that the goal of eyelid gluing is to look more awake, as opposed to looking more white. However, I think the idea that monolid eyes normally look sleepy (even while awake) must be influenced by western ideals of beauty, in that the model eye for "awake" is western, and not asian.

2. I feel a little weird about seeing this woman's personal youtube video up on this blog. Did you ask her if you could post it? I know there's nothing stopping you from posting it and talking about it, but if I were the woman making these makeup tutorials and I found out that I was being linked here, I would feel uncomfortable.

Yes she is distributing it for anybody to see, but still. This is a video by an asian woman for other asian women, not a video produced by an asian woman for white people to gawk at and talk about how weird asians are.

I realize that the same criticism could be made for a lot of things on the website. I guess this just seems more personal, and therefore it bothers me a little bit.

I posted this comment:
http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/07/16/eyelid-gluing-for-a-western-look/comment-page-1/#comment-84078
earlier.

Just wanted to reply to Sabriel, I am ethnically Korean and I don't feel that way about monolid eyes, but I'm aware that many do. My parents and the people around me never commented on how eyes looked, so it never really became part of what I noticed about people. I only began to hear people talking about it until right before college. I'm rather lucky (privileged) to have larger eyes in my cultural crosssection because I've only had it criticized within communities that are completely homogeneous, so I'm ready to accept that perhaps my experience differs from yours. However, I think that the idea of Asian eyes looking sleepy is not something that comes from them actually looking sleepy, but something that's been socially spread and learned.

And another point that I didn't make earlier is that not all Asians have natural monolid eyes. There are many that have "double eyelids," with no help from cosmetic surgery, tape, or glue.

I haven't seen the video yet because Youtube is blocked where I am now. =] I'm not sure if I want to see it though.

As mentioned by A_von, I dont know if a "western" look is necessarily what they're going for. Many japanese have naturally creased or "double-lidded" eyes. I know my mother does, whereas my aunt has "mono-lids", it's just a characteristic. It does seem that nowadays creased eyes are considered more beautiful, but I'd think it's more about being awake and "cute" than western.

Oh for God' sake. The level of denial going on here is amazing. Racism is a myth, and white colonization and imperialism that brings the idea of white superiority and of course beauty standards aren't universal! Because white people don't own most of the power in the world!!

Get a clue people. This? Racist. Denial isn't a river in Egypt.

Here, I live in the third world, where most people aren't white. Guess what is considered beautiful. No, not Asian, or black people.

The "They just want to look more white" argument is not accurate and more than a little tired. It mostly seems to come from people who saw eyelid surgery mentioned on Oprah's "world's beauty ideals" episode and take it as gospel.

There are many, many East Asian people in the world. And many of those many, many actually do have "double lids." A mono-lid Asian person who gets eyelid surgery probably does it to look like a double-lid Asian person and not out of secret hopes to look more like Nicole Kidman or Gisele Bundchen or whatever white person.

Same goes for fair skin. Fair skin has been prized in Asia long before they ever really knew what a European person looked like. It has very long cultural and historical roots that we can't allege are inherently the fault of "Hollywood" or "global beauty standards" or "the media."

Believe it or not, just as there are double-lid Asians, there are also Asians who are naturally quite pale, more "whitish" in complexion that "yellow." So maybe most Asians who use skin-whitening cream and have fears of tanning are trying to look like lighter-skinned Asians and not "white people."

That said, those facts do not cancel out the other facts that there ARE problems with the global beauty hierarchy in which white, western beauty is often more highly prized than the beauty of other ethnicities. No doubt it does have much to do how widespread and entrenched western media, from magazines to movies to TV shows, are throughout the world.

I understand it must be a very hard concept for some white people, like Jesse and Duran, to understand. Just remember that when you turn on the television, most of the people you see on your screen are white. And when you look at the magazine rack at the grocery store, the cover stars are overwhelming white. And when you go to the movies, the vast majority of characters are white. And then you go to the bookstore and the overwhelming majority of the books are written by white people about white characters. Then you realize that this very white, western culture is being exported throughout a mostly non-white, often developing world. The rest of the world has nothing on Americans when it comes to the development and dissemination and cultural entrenchment of media.

And that can be problematic.

But to say that eye lid surgery or skin whitening is strictly "Asians wanting to look white" is insultingly simplistic, given that light skin and double eyelids are not exclusive to white people.

Kandeezie, Ne-Yo has Chinese ancestry.
I think it's unfortunate that women are expected to live up to impossible ideals, no matter where the ideals come from. It comes at us from every angle. There is something wrong with our skin/hair/eye color, eye shape, hair texture, breast size, leg length, etc. I feel that most times when someone says something makes them look better, it's because that's what their society dictates would make them look better. Which is just sad.

Noir - THANK YOU. Notice how they didn't comment on the white fetish in Asian media, the Hello Kitty thing, the skin lightening cream, etc. I think they know exactly what's going on...I've even noticed Wikipedia being run over by (presumably white) Asiaphiles...they removed the wikipedia section on Michael Lohman and the sex crimes perpetrated against Asian women section. Some of them have even defended their bigotry in the Asiaphile and Asian fetish Talk section. You may say this topic has nothing to do with Asiaphiles, but actually, it does. I think this may be the source of most -or at least some- of the denial.

I am an Asian woman myself and I even justified myself with the same excuse that Sabriel and A_von have used. I also didn't see it as "racist" and said that I was tired of looking tired. I even said I only wanted the bigger eyes, not the double eyelid. It's called internalized racism - they were taught to hate themselves, as I have been. (I still got body image issues, but I managed to escape this one) But then, I kinda got to thinking - why do I think my eyes look "tired"? And why do I have such a problem with it? I realized what it was right away after; internalized racism pushed on me by my family and "common perception".

Yes, I DID (and still do) know that there are Asians born with natural double eyelids. But the question is - what makes the "monolid" Asians (not entirely true, since even Asians who look like they have monolids could have a "double eyelid" crease hidden under the surface lid. Try tilting your head back and forth in front of a mirror and see if the eyelid goes in and out.) hate their eyes? What makes them want the double lids?

And don't tell me it's "in our animal nature", because at one time, fat and old were considered hot. Then came the advent of the boyish thin look. And now, we have thin and hourglass. Don't tell me that desire for certain "traits" aren't cultural.

"it’s more about being awake and “cute” than western"

Why is "awake" or "not droopy" or "sleepy" the ideal? Why is "awake" what is cute, instead of sleepy being cute?

Why is "wide eyed, childlike and amazed" the ideal.

DO you really think it is a coincidence?

Of course it could be this: "it may be derived from the sppearances of the historical upperclass or nobility, as opposed to farmers who worked in the sun all day."

And how do any of those things not have to do with the dominant ideology of white being ideal. It takes a really selective history to not remember that whites have colonized most of the world and been the ones with power, money and status.

K. - You do know there are brown Asians, right?

You know, sociologists look at structure. They aren't denying human agency. Our protestant individualist culture dictates that agency is all that matters, and if you want to do anything in the world from becoming a millionaire to changing your physical appearance, you can if you only work hard enough. It is the American dream. There are a few people in the minority who happen to see structure and want to point it out. It does not mean that agency does not exist. But it is interesting the vehement reactions against seeing structure.

I'm sorry. I wasn't being clear. When I said that I believe it was to look more awake, what I meant was "I am willing to believe that, seeing how I am a white person and new to this subject, so if somebody with more personal experience is telling me that it is to look more awake, I will believe her rather than insist that it is to look more white."

However, I think that the idea of Asian eyes looking sleepy is not something that comes from them actually looking sleepy, but something that’s been socially spread and learned. This sounds very sensible to me.

You know, Yoni, it's pretty funny seeing how white celebrities and models are global icons of beauty in non-white countries. their images are pretty much exported everywhere.

I love seeing "you are over-symplifying!!" TO ME, who, uhm, doesn't live in a first world country at all.

I have this Japanese manga magazine (Shonen Magazine) that I bought here in a con, and its advertisements features Keanu Reeves, and others features white-blond women in underwear. Yeah, white people don't own the world, no sir. I'm not seeing a lot of black, Indian, Indigenous, Latinos beauty icons for countries that are... not white. I live in Latin America. Not many Asian beauty icons. Whites? Everywhere.

Of course it could be this: “it may be derived from the appearances of the historical upperclass or nobility, as opposed to farmers who worked in the sun all day.”

And how do any of those things not have to do with the dominant ideology of white being ideal. It takes a really selective history to not remember that whites have colonized most of the world and been the ones with power, money and status.

I would say that for Japan, at least, the timeline makes this argument more reasonable. They were pretty isolated from the Western world for quite a while (and they *definitely* had rich, upper-class people before whites showed up! Everyone did, but Japan had that quite recently.)

(I don't mean to say that *now* it doesn't have any racist white-centric elements, just that light skin as a beauty ideal, etc. may have *originated* before whites even came into the picture.)

But to say that eye lid surgery or skin whitening is strictly “Asians wanting to look white” is insultingly simplistic, given that light skin and double eyelids are not exclusive to white people.

Uhuh. Yeah, you know, I'm will never claim to be an expert in Asian history, but I've seen a lot of images of what was considered beautiful (in different countries) before Western colonization. Did they have fair skin? A lot had. Did they look like modern Asian's beauty standards? Not at all.

Noir, have you studied Western art history? I minored in it in college. That doesn't make me an expert, but I can definitively say that who was considered beautiful in Western art a thousand years ago, five hundred years ago, two hundred years ago, fifty years ago, would not necessarily look like "modern Westerners' beauty standards." In some cases, not at all.

Don't use that argument here. East Asians have their own cultural ideals about what is beauty, and surprise surprise, those ideals can change and evolve over the years, just like Western ideals of beauty have changed over the years.

Am I saying that modern Asian beauty standards have no Western influence? Of course not! But, wow, amazingly, not even white people are at the secret center of every Asian's desire to be beautiful.

Sabriel - Thank you for clarifying your position. I understand now that you didn't want to sound offensive towards the Asian women, so that is why you said that. And it's good that you aren't trying to "speak for them"; everyone has different experiences and I am speaking one of the (few? many? dunno.) of them.

Noir:

"I have this Japanese manga magazine (Shonen Magazine) that I bought here in a con, and its advertisements features Keanu Reeves, and others features white-blond women in underwear. Yeah, white people don’t own the world, no sir. I’m not seeing a lot of black, Indian, Indigenous, Latinos beauty icons for countries that are… not white. I live in Latin America. Not many Asian beauty icons. Whites? Everywhere."

They like Avril Lavine, too. I saw her also in a Japanese magazine. And yes, you are right - "white" beauty standards ARE popular in other "non western" countries - why are skin whitening creams so popular among "Asian" (especially Asian countries, even in the not-technically Asian country of India), "Middle Eastern", Black and Latino women? (If there are more people suckered in by this, please tell me) That shit has so much poison the people die or get seriously ill using it; Unilever is still criticized for the mercury (only one of the various toxic ingredients in skin whitening creams) being dumped by their Indian subsidiary, Hindustan Unilever, known for their skin whitening product, "Fair and Lovely".

And if you're going to fruitlessly push the "light Asian beauty standard" argument again, think about this: skin lightening is also popular in "Brown Asian" countries, such as the Philippines.

Duran is the troll that never goes away.

"Don’t use that argument here. East Asians have their own cultural ideals about what is beauty, and surprise surprise, those ideals can change and evolve over the years, just like Western ideals of beauty have changed over the years."

F. - are YOU an Asian? No? Then stop speaking for the rest of us, even the ones who agree with you.

"those ideals can CHANGE and EVOLVE" Are you kidding me!?! Is damaging your eyes (redness, visible scarring, lower pulled eyebrows) and dieing or being severly ill from poisoning an "EVOLVED" (aka, "civilized") concept of beauty from the "SAVAGE" concept of finding monolid eyes and light medium to medium to dark skin beautiful? I cannot believe what you are saying here.

Source: http://www.drmeronk.com/asian/asian-eyelid-risks.html
and
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/health_science/articles/2003/12/16/whitening_skin_can_be_deadly/

(My last comment did not go through, because of links I added)

"And if you’re going to fruitlessly push the “light Asian beauty standard” argument again, think about this: skin lightening is also popular in “Brown Asian” countries, such as the Philippines."

I was directing that at F.

More at F.

"Noir, have you studied Western art history? I minored in it in college. That doesn’t make me an expert, but I can definitively say that who was considered beautiful in Western art a thousand years ago, five hundred years ago, two hundred years ago, fifty years ago, would not necessarily look like “modern Westerners’ beauty standards.” In some cases, not at all."

How does patronizing Noir and having a minor in Western art history qualify you to decide what every Asian wants?

"East Asians have their own cultural ideals about what is beauty, and surprise surprise, [b]those ideals can change and evolve[b] over the years."

Are you seriously saying that visible scarring, eye redness, and being poisoned is an "EVOLVED" (aka. civilized) concept of beauty? So any culture that thinks dark skin and monolids are beautiful are "uncultured, savage and stupid"? Is that what you are saying?

"But, wow, amazingly, not even white people are at the [b]secret center of every Asian’s desire to be beautiful.[b]"

Ohhh....I see what you're getting at. Reading your last comment, I finally realize what you are. You are unofficially championing "light skin" and "big round eyes" as a superior standard of beauty. So Asians aren't trying to be light and round eyed, because of internalized racism from indoctrinated colonial Western thought from globalization, no. Asians (and a hell of alot of other people, too. Even men.) are destroying themselves inside and out, because having white skin and big eyes makes them "beautiful", right? Those "ideals" can change and EVOLVE? So skin whitening creams and eye mutilation is the product of an EVOLVED standard of beauty?

You amaze me.

F., how do you think those ideals changed and "evolved"? Through "white" European colonization, of course.

In addition to what Asian commenters have already posted, I'd like to remark that the "after" picture on the eyelid glue container under the video in the original post shows an Asian eyelid crease. Caucasian eyelid creases follow the line where the eyeball meets the orbit, Asian eyelid creases follow the eyelid line. So it is totally not trying to mimic Caucasian eyes.

I understand it must be a very hard concept for some white people, like Jesse and Duran, to understand.

Hilarious. My father is Vietnamese.

Also, I'll repeat that "Korean women hate themselves because no one can stand up to the power of Alice of Wonderland" is an overly simplistic explanation of this surgical procedure. If you counter with "racism exists!" or "culture matters," you are arguing a different point.

Wow. So much brouhaha in the morning.

First of all, Yoni: your counter-argument seems to be spurred on the basis of attacking one word that I unfortunately chose: "evolve." That was the wrong word to choose, because it has such potentially negative connotation. I apologize for using that word. It was one in the morning after a long day at work and I was not at my most sensitive in choosing words. So I should have just said, "Asian beauty standards have changed" instead of implying they have changed for the better.

That's my fault.

So again, I do not think Asian beauty standards have "evolved" in that they have become "better." They have changed significantly in some ways, but so have beauty standards elsewhere, EVEN in the dominant western culture. As I said, I don't think Asian beauty standards are free of western influence. But I doubt that white women from Hollywood are the center and focus of every Asian woman's desire to be beautiful.

Honestly, that may be giving white people too much credit and Asian people too little.

"How does patronizing Noir and having a minor in Western art history qualify you to decide what every Asian wants?"

I'm pretty sure that I never "decided what every Asian wants" here or anywhere else (also: are YOU somehow qualified to decide what's best for every Asian?). Noir made a statement about how East Asian images she has seen from long ago are not reflected in modern Asian beauty standards. I was making a comparison in that similarly, in the Western world, images of physical beauty often don't match modern images of physical beauty. I was stating that Noir's argument was problematic.

Also, I have NEVER debated the existence of internal racism. Or "indoctrinated" racism. However, I will argue as to the extent to which it goes. Again, as I have written earlier, turning this into a simple "They just want to look white!" argument is not the most accurate or sensitive way to discuss this. Especially on a website that purports to discuss the importance of sociology.

And if it matters, I am East Asian and I have no eyelid crease. I have no desire to get one, through "glue" or surgery, either. No one, Asian or otherwise, has ever pressured me to change my eyes. I would say half of the people in my family naturally have a crease and half don't. The same goes for my Asian friends. And I have never thought double-lid Asians or pale Asians were more beautiful than mono-lid Asians or darker skinned Asians.

But please, continue to accuse me of spreading my "White skin-double lid uber alles" agenda.

@ Jesse: I apologize. When I referenced you in my initial post I had mentally attributed to you something another poster had written by mistake. My bad.

We're actually essentially arguing the same thing: that boiling down Asian beauty standards to "white people white people white people" is overly simplistic and problematic.

Ellen wrote:

You know, sociologists look at structure. They aren’t denying human agency. Our protestant individualist culture dictates that agency is all that matters, and if you want to do anything in the world from becoming a millionaire to changing your physical appearance, you can if you only work hard enough. It is the American dream. There are a few people in the minority who happen to see structure and want to point it out. It does not mean that agency does not exist. But it is interesting the vehement reactions against seeing structure.

Hmm, you're saying that because you've been brainwashed by a particular ideology that makes a fetish of bourgeois guilt.

Does my saying that provoke a "vehement reaction" in you? Is that because what I wrote was so insightful and clever, or because what I wrote was maddeningly incomplete?

There is a fundamental tension between agency and structure theories, best exemplified by the fact that people can accuse others of having false consciousness ("I love my own eyes, but those poor women have been beaten into submission by that modern-day Genghis Khan, Alice in Wonderland!") Obviously structure is important. But sitting around and saying "look, sociologists focus on structure, so there's no need to think about the weaknesses of structural theories, and whenever someone scoffs at a structural theory it just proves that structural theories are really important after all" is not very helpful.

Aaaaah. Yes. Western beauty standards have changed. You know what the funny thing is? WESTERN WHITE PEOPLE WEREN'T COLONIZED BY ANYONE WHO ISN'T WHITE. So their "beauty standards evolution"? Didn't depend on seeing another race as "superior". Dear God, that Egypt River.

You know, I don't want to argue with you, because you clearly think that is "not giving East Asian a lot of credit". You know, I will tell you that the world as we know it today is pretty much white western corps having too much power and money and exporting the white image as the model. Yeah, every culture is different, and, simplifying, depending of the power the country has, it can maintain their own standards without being affected. (Like, we didn't stand a chance.)

Do I think that this two eyefolds thing is about maintaining East Asian beauty standards? Uhm.

Do the Koreans think of the Japanese and Chinese as being members of superior races? Because Japan and China may have been even more forceful colonizers in Korea than that modern-day Genghis Khan also known as Alice in Wonderland.

This model of strong colonial powers forcing weaker cultures to accept certain beauty standards is flat-out over-simplistic.

By the way, on a somewhat related topic, here's something interesting for this blog:

http://metropolitician.blogs.com/scribblings_of_the_metrop/2006/02/where_do_korean.html

Uhm, Jesse, why don't you start researching Korean and Taiwanese cultures? I don't want to start talking about things I know jack shit of, of course cultures intersect! But I just love seeing white people getting defensive and talking about "oversymplifying!!!" about things that are pretty obvious.

I'm Vietnamese, Noir.

I guess when things are "pretty obvious" to you but not obvious to other people, you may want to try to use evidence and logic to support your claims rather than simply assuming your conclusions. But then again evidence and logic are white imperialist notions, right?

Okay, I'm sorry for assuming you are white. I guess you would have a better understanding of living in Vietnam than me, so you may say that Vietnamese don't think of white as more beautiful due to colonization.

I have some links, mostly about Asian descendants, or Asian women living in western countries. I don't know how much it will be worth to you since apparently we are talking about East-Asian living in Asia. And those are just links from a completely outsider.

This model of strong colonial powers forcing weaker cultures to accept certain beauty standards is flat-out over-simplistic.

What I can say is this. It's not a "model" for me since I live in a mostly brown country being brown and knowing what self-hate means due to thousand of years of European colonization.

You may say it's not the same for Asian countries, I have read some people talking about this, of course I have been arrogant claiming that I know more than you from what I have read, while you lived it. I'm still VERY skeptical if you tell me this video here isn't about white beauty standards, but who am I to talk?

*links from a completely outsider: Me. NOT the people who wrote those entries

This one was supposed to be the first link.

I was going to comment yesterday. And then I read these responses. The palpable defensiveness is probably just as off-putting to others as it is to me.

Look, I'm an outsider. I'm Caucasian - technically. I don't consider myself white, since 1. I'm Jewish; 2. have some Asian ancestry, and; 3. I don't look western European. Greek, Lebanese, (north) Indian are all common guesses.

I guess the thing is, I recognize that there are internal and external cultural factors, but it simply makes me sad when people can't learn to accept - or even love - themselves without making changes and going through processes that are potentially harmful. That's all.

"Yoni, just a few things. Anime nowhere near resembles Disney cartoons; they are completely dissimilar in look and theme."
Yeah, it is *now*. But if you go back and look at the really early anime the resemblance is very noticeable...

I guess the thing is, I recognize that there are internal and external cultural factors, but it simply makes me sad when people can’t learn to accept – or even love – themselves without making changes and going through processes that are potentially harmful. That’s all.

That's pretty easy to *say* though. I think it's a lovely idea that everyone should just spontaneously throw off the bonds of oppression and hold hands with each other and yadda yadda but you can't pretend that learning to love yourself is the only thing people need. People need some validation from their friends, family, and culture too. And these vary a *lot* depending on who you are, what you look like, and where you're living.

On the other hand, I think it's really hard to say why any particular individual finds something beautiful. (When it comes to what a person considers sexy, etc, it gets *really* complicated.) I don't think that arguing that "white Western beauty norms often get adopted by PoC all over the world to some extent" means you can then immediately argue "and *that's* why that woman is gluing her eyes!"

Wow. Quite a lot of comments.

I live in Japan and have been here for 2 years. Most of my friends are Japanese and while I'm no expert, I've learned a few things about the culture here.

First off, this is not a new product, it's been around for quite some time. Secondly, I understand why it looks like the double eyelid is designed to make you look more 'western', in reality it's not. It's designed to make you look like you have double eyelids, which is considered more beautiful. There are LOTS of Japanese people with double eyelids. It is not rare to have double eyelids at all. Some people do and some people don't, it's really as simple as that. A better analogy would be blue eyes in whites. Some people have blue eyes, some don't and it's considered by many to be a mark of beauty.

Thirdly, in order to really get a more 'caucasian' look, your eyelid has to wrinkle out, not fold in. The biggest difference in eyelids between my Japanese friends and I is that my eyelids fold out while theirs fold in. Eyelid glue doesn't even try to re-create this effect. It tries to create a double fold.

Fourthly, the type of woman that would use this is the same type of woman that would use fake nails, fake eyelashes, extra makeup, dye their hair, buy designer handbags, and all sorts of things in order to look more 'cute' or desirable to the eyes by the current society, which in this case is generally other Japanese people.

Finally, I've seen it on this blog before and other places, but it always kind of bothers me when people see something and assume Japanese people (and others, but I know the most about Japanese people) do things to look or act more "Western" or "Caucasian". I know these are social constructs and I also know that Western movies, music, and TV shows are popular here, but that's only part of the story. The other part is Korean movies, music, and TV shows are popular in Japan and a lot of people try to look more Korean (although that fad is dying down).

It is true that some women wear long gloves and carry sun umbrellas in the summer, but does that mean it's to be lighter? Possibly, but to be more "Western" or "Caucasian"? That's a bit of a stretch. Some people here also spend hours tanning their skin, so what does that mean? If anything, I feel like the women aiming for lighter skin are trying to reach a more Japanese ideal beauty based on history. If you look at historic Japanese paintings and historical iconography (the most well known is the Geisha), they all have almost white skin. Is that due to the influence of countries that they had no access to then? Probably not.

To make a long point short, just because it seems like Japanese people are trying to impersonate "western" looks and ideals doesn't mean they are. It's not as simple as that by any means.

I think it’s a lovely idea that everyone should just spontaneously throw off the bonds of oppression and hold hands with each other and yadda yadda but you can’t pretend that learning to love yourself is the only thing people need. People need some validation from their friends, family, and culture too.

I never said it was easy or even possible. Of course I recognize that it's a simplistic idea. It's extremely difficult to maintain a strong sense of self when you feel as though you're constantly getting conflicting or contradictory messages, but cultural standards of beauty aren't completely monolithic.

"Do the Koreans think of the Japanese and Chinese as being members of superior races? Because Japan and China may have been even more forceful colonizers in Korea than that modern-day Genghis Khan also known as Alice in Wonderland.

This model of strong colonial powers forcing weaker cultures to accept certain beauty standards is flat-out over-simplistic."

Jesse - WTH? I said the Japanese loved Alice in Wonderland so much that they were "inspired" by it; I didn't say it was specifically crammed down their throats. However, Western beauty standards WERE seen and integrated into Asian culture as "beautiful".

You are NOT Korean, so stop speaking for me. I didn't say Alice in Wonderland was the reason of oppression, I said it was Western beauty ideals. True, Japan and China were colonizers too, but in the end, the US won. The US took South Korea, established bases there permanently and the whole country is basically the US's b___. But I am not talking about that, I am talking about Western beauty standards invading Asian culture IN GENERAL.

YES, as the people repeat, Asians DO have double eyelids too (some do), but no one has explained to me SPECIFICALLY why it suddenly trumped monolids. All they are saying is that everyone universally finds double eyelids attractive. Which I call BS to, instead of grasping at straws and accusing me of saying "Alice in Wonderland is tyranny". This reminds me a lot of Sotomayer and the Republicans ("wise Latina" - as IF the WM Repubs haven't done that before), which I find funny. Yes, the plastic surgery in the end does not make Asian women look white. Unfortunately, double eyelids are seen as "beautiful" and monolids are seen as "ugly" and we all know that there is a common belief that "All Asians have monolids". As Noir said, "Denial ain't a river in Egypt".

"“Yoni, just a few things. Anime nowhere near resembles Disney cartoons; they are completely dissimilar in look and theme.”
Yeah, it is *now*. But if you go back and look at the really early anime the resemblance is very noticeable…"

THANK YOU, titanis. I really didn't want to hold their hands and "lead their way", so I just ignored them till now.

Oh and btw, Jesse - why don't YOU use logic and evidence? All I see from your comments are a bunch of straw mans, many assumptions, "bourgeoisie guilt is ruining America" when someone DARES question the "Precious Beauty Ideals of Asia" (whether the Japanese, in their admiration of Western culture, stole some parts of others' culture -yes, I AM admitting that the JAPANESE (not the Koreans) STOLE from Western culture- or the worldview that "White = Pretty" were pretty much pounded in by Colonialism), the "I'm a Vietnamese!" defense instead of talking about your personal experiences as pertaining to this topic and almost NO evidence. Well, except for that one link. And that just PROVES my point, doesn't it? Didn't think anyone would click the link for fear of being "contradicted", did you?

Blah blah blah Yoni. Re-read your very first comment in this thread; you're flabbergasted that I challenged the statement that "our society pounds the idea of the white woman as the beauty ideal into the heads of woman as color." But now you say "I didn’t say it was specifically crammed down their throats." Now you didn't say that statement, you just vehemently disagreed when I challenged that statement. Boo hoo.

As for my "I'm Vietnamese" "defense," well it certainly seemed like a relevant point when two different people in this thread "accused" me of being white. I didn't exactly bring it up out of the blue.

But waah waah waah, you're so DARING and CHALLENGING.

And if you disagree with my beliefs Yoni I hardly think you can *blame* me from them; I must have stolen them from another culture, and that culture is truly responsible for whatever bad things I believe. So take it up with them.

For them, not from them.

You know what, Jesse? I said that Disney and Alice in Wonderland were STOLEN. White beauty standards were ENFORCED. Those two things are DIFFERENT, but they're related. Trying to take me out of context again? (Or maybe I should have been...clearer.)

Why can't you admit that White Beauty Standards are enforced on People of Color? Afraid much?

"And if you disagree with my beliefs Yoni I hardly think you can *blame* me from them; I must have stolen them from another culture, and that culture is truly responsible for whatever bad things I believe. So take it up with them."

...uhm, internalized racism isn't stolen at all. What is your problem?

I'm a Japanese female living in Japan. I completely agree with Keith. I am the only one in my family to have monolids, the rest have huge double-fold eyes. I have not for a second considered double-folds "caucasian".

Yes Yoni, maybe you should have been clearer.

Read your first comment in this thread again, in which you defend the idea that Western beauty standards are imposed on Asian countries by referring to Alice in Wonderland and Disney.

Now you're outraged because I didn't realize there was a huge difference between things that are "stolen" and things that are "enforced."

If this distinction is so important to you, maybe you shouldn't write comments that completely ignore the distinction, and then later cry about being taken out of context.

To test your understanding, here's a question: when Korean schoolbooks have incredibly racist depiction of blacks (more racist than would be found in American textbooks), is that because racism was imposed on Korea, or is it because the Koreans stole racism from the Americans?

"To test your understanding, here’s a question: when Korean schoolbooks have incredibly racist depiction of blacks (more racist than would be found in American textbooks), is that because racism was imposed on Korea, or is it because the Koreans stole racism from the Americans?"

Actually, those racist depictions resemble Early US racism of blacks. (All those stereotypes and images can be seen in the USA's past.) It couldn't be that they stole it; it looks more and more like it was taught/indoctrinated by the really really racist time of America. Those same images are still prevalent throughout the more "Southern" parts of the US of A. Even the blog itself agrees that this is the result of the normalization of "whiteness" of America. I commented before that this blog PROVES my point, rather than disprove it.

And please stop using a personal attack tone, it does not make you look smarter in the face of proof and logic. You DO use strawmen and you then provide everyone with a link that proves MY point, while claiming that it proves YOUR point. You are obviously using logical fallacies to attack me, for reasons that I don't understand.

So instead of using logical fallacies while foaming at the mouth with rabid fury, why don't you tell me why YOU think the "alertness/awake-look/round eyed/bigger eyes/etc." look is so "popular" among Asians? Why do YOU think monolids are a problem among Asians?

And the Disney, AIW examples were to show that "Western" culture has GREATLY impacted and influenced "Asian culture". It takes a lot of willful ignorance not to see that.

If anything, my first comment gives Asia more agency than my later comments, in which I make distinctions between what is stolen and enforced. My first comment implies that their "culture" is only a reflection of "Western" culture, because they admire the West so much.

"Uhuh. Yeah, you know, I’m will never claim to be an expert in Asian history, but I’ve seen a lot of images of what was considered beautiful (in different countries) before Western colonization. Did they have fair skin? A lot had. Did they look like modern Asian’s beauty standards? Not at all."

What Noir meant was that they had 'light skin' as the beauty standard, but the eyes were smaller and the noses were softer. There was no fetishization of bigger eyes or slimmer & longer noses. The big eyes, slimmer nose thing was due to Western colonization. The oppressed are taught to integrate into the oppressor's culture and see the oppressor as "good", so as to be "accepted".

"I’m a Japanese female living in Japan. I completely agree with Keith. I am the only one in my family to have monolids, the rest have huge double-fold eyes. I have not for a second considered double-folds “caucasian”."

That would be because of new "rationales" made up by people who wanted to counter what they saw as an "accusation" of trying to look Eurasian. Not all of them know that the bigger eye being popular look is because of the fact that earlier, it was about looking Eurasian. Then, the trend became so common, it probably became about "culture". But, their "culture" DOES want them to look Eurasian. It's like arguing that you think women should be submissive, because you were brought up by "traditional" values. But those traditional values ARE sexist, no? That makes that speaker a sexist person. Huh, dialogues do help.

And yes, "double eyelid"s are "popular", but you haven't answered why it is the "beauty" and why monolids are seen as "plain". Even the woman in the picture of the eyeglue ad already has double eyelids, but it looks like monolids, because the lid is on the inside. Why is "awake" and "doe eyed" seen as the beauty ideal?

Did anyone ever figure that even in the past, before the invention of plastic surgery, that Asian women (and men) wanted to have double lids, but just didn't have the proper technology? No doubt, the influences of west, east, and everywhere have shaped perceptions of beauty. But even before cultures were acquainted with one another, I wouldn't doubt that one woman with monolid eyes saw another woman with double lids and wondered if she couldn't create the same look (or vice versa even).

A_von, then why did she WANT double eyelids? Beauty standards before colonization were all about light skin and MONOLIDS. Do you have any proof that Asians wanted double eyelids, even before Westernization? Because a lot of drawings from back then emphasize the beauty model as fair skinned, perhaps slender and "graceful" looking, with monolid eyes. They did not have double lidded eyes at all. It didn't look even like the bubbly and doe-eyed round eyes without the double eyelid. (that was the look I wanted)

I don't have any proof (ta-da, you win). I just meant that probably not every single, solitary Asian woman back in the day before colonialism wanted monolid or even double eyelids (since it is a naturally occurring thing) or even the popular beauty ideal. Just like how not every woman wants to look like a fucking Barbie today. Yes, maybe it was an isolated incident, but considering human nature and how we are not all slaves to trends, I wouldn't doubt that in history, an Asian woman wanted double lids just because she saw them on another Asian woman and thought they were pretty. That's all I meant.

White folks sure love to imagine they're placed atop a pedestal when it comes to standards of beauty. Jeez.

"YES, as the people repeat, Asians DO have double eyelids too (some do), but no one has explained to me SPECIFICALLY why it suddenly trumped monolids."

Because standards of beauty change? In the late 90s it was more fashionable to be tanned in Japan, but that changed rather quickly so that paler skin was more desired. I don't get why only eyelids need to be politicized.

There's another product that's similar, but its for more western eyes. Its called Eye Magic - The Non-Surgical Eye Lift. Their web site is http://www.eyemagic.net if you're interested.

Keep up the good blogging!

This article is a bit simplistic and a little too Eurocentric, this coming from an Asian American.

There are many East Asian (and Asian American) women with monolid and double eye lids. It just so happens double eye lids are deemed more beautiful in Asian (and Asian American) communities.

Is this to say a long history of white privilege and racism didn't influence these cultural ideas of beauty? Of course not. I'm sure it did. But East Asia has had its own standard of beauty that happens to overlap Western notions of beauty.

And our ideas of beauty are dynamic, and therefore subject to change with time. In case you didn't know, many East Asians have very fair skin tones, and, again, lighter skin tone happened to become the beauty standard prior to western influence.

Let's not oversimplify reality here guys.

Erika,

Pale skin has been the standard for beauty in Japanese society (and East Asian countries in general) for ages, prior to western influence. What are you talking about?

If you guys want to make a better argument, look towards South Asian women wanting lighter skin and make connections with British colonialism.

East Asia is a more difficult case.

There are many people with double eyelids in Asia. Double eyelids are a standard of beauty for some people and it doesn't mean that they are trying to achieve a Caucasian look. They want what the people in their society have. They are influence by the people in their country. Only a small small fraction would possibly do it for that.

Pale skin has been a standard of beauty for some time in Asia before the West even venture there like China and Japan.

Please note that we are all human beings. Some of us NOT MIXED Asians are able to be born with large eyes, pale skin, different color eyes (yes there are NATURALLY green and blue eyed Asians who are not mix!!! like this ethnic group in China and can be found in other Asians as well), and whose hair color is not BLACK naturally! Can you honestly say..somehow they alter their genetics to be Caucasian before they even know what a Caucasian is?

People have a wrong idea of Asians trying to be like Caucasians when it is only a very small percentage. It's the general stereotype that if Asians don't have slanty eyes and buck teeth, they made themselves more Westernized, more Caucasian. The majority wants to fit into their country's standard of beauty, some of the standards that have existed since before Western Colonization. For example, those eyelid gluing is popular among teens by making their eyes larger, which makes them look more cuter in pictures. Look at those ULZZANG pictures. Some Asians standard of beauty is cuteness. You can find lots of necklaces that are very girly, pink and have bows.

I'm Chinese, and for most of my life, I never noticed the whole mono-eyelids and double-eyelid. One day, I switched from glasses to contacts and everyone in my family (and Asian classmates) commented about my prominent double-eyelids and round eyes. When I finally noticed it, I felt I looked weird compared other Asians. However, everyone said it was really attractive. Ever since then, I never look at a fellow Asian the same again. I've noticed that there's a whole variety of eye shapes. I've seen really round eyes with mono-lids and narrower eyes with double-lids.

I agree that double-eyelids are not desired because it is a "Caucasian" or a "Western", but because it is considered a standard of beauty. There are Asians who desire double-lids for the wrong reasons.

I remember watching a clip from the Tyra Show where a Korean-American woman underwent a Blepharoplasty surgery so that she can achieve the double-eyelid look. At first she went on about being the only Asian girl in town and was made fun of being Asian. Then she claimed that she got the surgery just because her eyes were getting droopy.

One time, a gay Asian-American in the audience recalled only dating white men because he loved their white skin, light-colored hair and their round eyes.

Now that makes me sad. I've seen really attractive men and women with mono-lids. Double-eyelids are overrated, believe me.

Hm. I remember being on a forum where someone complained of waking up with one single eyelid and one double eyelid. I imagine that if I had single eyelids I might do this from time to time for aesthetic variety or an ocd desire to be symmetrical, but I can't imagine doing it all the time. Single eyelids are just as good as double eyelids, and as this girl has shown, more versatile. I had single eyelids when I was younger, and kind of grew out of them, but I imagine I'd keep them if I had them now. Mono lids are quite attractive to me, no more attractive than double lids, but different, and I hope that that variety can be prized more in the future. (Ah, well, this response from me seems a little rambling and ineloquent... Forgive me, I am tired.)

im caucasian yet i have monolids and "slanted" eyes (i always have) so does my brother and mom, my brothers often mistaken for asian I however have blue eyes so im not lol but i do have dark hair. So therefore doublelids arent always "caucasian" I actually love my eyes and how they look exotic and not like everyone else the reason i would use the eyelid tape is to merely make them bigger when on some days my eyes become really small.

My maternal grandmother was a Taiwan Aboriginal decendent with double lids and large eyes. As you all know, an Asian can have small eyes with double lids, or large eyes with single lids. This grandmom married a single lid man with genes from Northeastern Asia. Their kids have an assorted mixture of the double and single lids. My mother got the single ones. She then married my father who had Caucasian features and was an offspring of the Atayal of Taiwan. (Recently there are articles on the possibility of homosapians evolving from East Asians.) I as a younger woman had pronounced double lids from the inside. However, when I turned 40something, there started to form an outside crease on top of my left eye that scared the hell out of me. I later realized it was to stay. As years went by, my right eye is forming the same outside lid. You can see both the earlier inside lids and the later grown outside lid, or lids. The right eye sometimes goes back to the inner lid looks. I then read some early twentieth century Japanese researcher's observations on the Aboriginal peoples of Taiwan, and learned that those women looked more Chinese in their younger years. When they were about 50, they started to have their ancestral looks. It was an enlightenment to my morphological changes on my eye lids. I wished I had read the books earlier. So much about eye lids. I am now relaxed not worrying about them any more.

A lot of Asians already have double eyelids...
Does straightening your hair make people want to become more "Asian"?

Thanks for providing informative information with us.