Freud distinguished between a “mature” (vaginal) and “immature” (clitoral) orgasm, telling women that to require clitoral stimulation for orgasm was a psychological problem. Contesting this, in 1970 Anne Koedt wrote The Myth of the Vaginal Orgasm. She explains:
Frigidity has generally been defined by men as the failure of women to have vaginal orgasms. Actually the vagina is not a highly sensitive area and is not constructed to achieve orgasm. It is the clitoris which is the center of sexual sensitivity and which is the female equivalent of the penis… Rather than tracing female frigidity to the false assumptions about female anatomy, our “experts” have declared frigidity a psychological problem of women.
Indeed, studies show that about 1/3rd of women regularly reach orgasm during penile-vaginal sex. The rest (that is, the majority) require more direct clitoral stimulation. Koedt goes on (my emphasis):
All this leads to some interesting questions about conventional sex and our role in it. Men have orgasms essentially by friction with the vagina, not the clitoral area, which is external and not able to cause friction the way penetration does. Women have thus been defined sexually in terms of what pleases men; our own biology has not been properly analyzed. Instead, we are fed the myth of the liberated woman and her vaginal orgasm – an orgasm which in fact does not exist.
Koedt’s article was highly influential and rejecting the notion of the “vaginal orgasm” (both anatomically and functionally) was part of second wave feminism.
Still, the vaginal orgasm keeps coming back. During the ’90s, it came back in the form of the G-spot. You, too, can have a vaginal orgasm if you can just find that totally-orgasmic-pleasure-spot-rich-in-blood-vessels-and-nerve-endings-that-makes-for-wildly-amazing-orgasms-with-ejaculation that you, strangely, never knew was there! (See what Betty Dodson has to say about the g-spot here.)
Most recently, the vaginal orgasm has come back in the form of orgasmic birth. The idea is that women can, if they really want to, have an orgasm (or orgasms) during childbirth.
Now, I don’t want to argue that women never have orgasms from penile-vaginal intercourse. They do. I also don’t care to debate whether a g-spot exists. And I am certainly not going to look a mother in the face and tell her she did not have an orgasm during childbirth. I am sure some women do. (And, anyway, I get a kick out of thinking about such a mother telling her teenager the story of his birth, so I’m going to keep believing it is true).
Anyway, what I do want to do is discuss how the video below uses the idea of orgasmic birth to reinscribe the myth of the vaginal orgasm. The reporter says that orgasmic birth is just “basic science” and then turns to interview an M.D. The M.D. uses the vaginal orgasm as scientific evidence for the possibility of orgasmic birth. She says: obviously a baby would cause an orgasm when it comes out the vagina, since a penis causes an orgasm when it goes into the vagina. But, of course, it usually doesn’t. That last part isn’t “basic science,” it’s ideology (as Koedt so nicely points out).
I wonder how many women now feel doubly bad. Not only can they not have orgasms from penile-vaginal intercourse, they also experienced pain during childbirth! Bad ladies! Watch the whole 8-minute clip or start at 3:28 to see the interview with the M.D.:
Via Jezebel.
Comments 36
Ern — January 6, 2009
Putting aside the vaginal orgasm part of this for a moment, I think you could have a whole series of posts on labor and birth. Not to discount natural childbirth and the use of midwives and non-hospital settings, but to say that labor is as painful as you expect is a bit of a sociological construction in and of itself. Women's experiences with labor occur on a wide scale. While some women give birth easily and quickly--even pleasurably, other women still die in childbirth. And hospitals ARE improving in terms of flexibility--women are encouraged to get up and move around, they can get in tubs of water in some hospitals, midwives are encouraged to be the primary caregiver, but with hospital medicine available to intervene if something goes wrong. Because things do go wrong sometimes.
L. G. — January 6, 2009
I think the real bottom line is that every person is an individual with an unique physiology and needs, and we shouldn't discount anyone's feelings or experiences. Regardless of which side of the argument it best supports. I'm completely appalled by Freud's hypothesis (did he have a vagina? what was this overarching problem he had with women?), but I do believe in the g-spot and would say that beside my majority of clitoral orgasms, I've had entirely non-clitoral orgasms as well.
Also, some of the strongest orgasms I've ever had have been during dreams, or directly upon waking, without any actual physical stimulation at all, though I feel them throughout my body and have all the regular physical reactions to them. I also happen to be synesthesic, and experience the sensation of orgasm partially through colour. Would some people tell me I was making this all up? Definitely. Does that mean my experiences actually deserve to be discounted or vilified, because they counter someone's argument?
I personally do not believe so, no.
I think, really, the villains here are those who claim to understand subjective truths through objective means, like Freud. Those whom then proceed to find yet another reason to tell us that there is something wrong with us. All because they cannot grasp that there are human beings with experiences outside of their own.
lauredhel — January 6, 2009
The claim that orgasmic or ecstatic birth is impossible for all women is no less untrue than the claim that vaginal orgasm is impossible for all women. Both deny and erase the real experiences of real women.
I think it is a big mistake to equate vaginal orgasm ideas and ecstatic birth ideas, because the two function very differently. I also think it is a huge mistake to assume that women who experience or witness ecstatic birth are engaging in the oppression of women.
In my experience and reading, it is absolutely the reverse: these are the women challenging the notions that childbirth must always be controlled and interfered with by men. Read a little by Ina May Gaskin, who has been staunchly throwing down the gauntlet to male obstetricians for decades.
The idea that birth is invariably horrifying, dangerous, and in need of constant interference is what is propping up skyrocketing and unreasonable rates of surgical birth at the expense of women's health, and denying women their choice of healthcare in pregnancy and birth in favour of big business. Does anyone here really believe that over 50% of births must involve a surgical incision to be safe? That over 75% of births must be profoundly interfered with? Because this is what is happening.
Modern supporters of midwifery are not anti-safety or anti-technology; they are, instead, virtually the only people fighting for women, instead of for money or turf. They are now supported by the Cochrane Collaboration, the authority of evidence-based medicine, which recently found that midwifery-led care, far from being risky and subpar, is both safer and more satisfying for women than obstetrician-led care.
Sarah TX — January 6, 2009
Lauredhel - I don't think lisa was claiming that women who have had orasmic births, or those who seek to have ecstatic births, are somehow oppressive. Her example shows how sloppy news coverage of one such birth a) codifies the idea that "proper women" have vaginal orgasms (which is untrue however you slice it), and therefore b) "proper women" should be able to experience childbirth on some higher level. Note that it wasn't the midwife who made this statement, it was the M.D. and the reporter's editing of the M.D.
Cara — January 6, 2009
Look, "vaginal orgasm" doesn't exist for a simple reason -- because the clitoris extends into the inner walls of the vagina, and therefore all orgasms are a product of its stimulation. All orgasms are clitoral orgasms because the clitoris is much, much larger than we think it is.
The problem is that too many people instead say that "vaginal orgasm" doesn't exist because women don't/can't have orgasms from stimulation that is strictly of the inner walls of the vagina without any stimulation of the outer clitoris. And this is just false. And really annoying. And really pisses off those women who are told that their orgasms just don't exist.
Like the statement that a penis going into a vagina doesn't cause an orgasm. I'm the first to admit that usually, in fact in a vast majority of cases, it doesn't. I'm the first to argue and do so regularly against my own personal interests, that we need to talk more about the clitoris. But sometimes? Sometimes penetration does cause an orgasm. For some women it's the only kind of orgasm they can have, or their orgasms from outer clitoral stimulation just plain suck by comparison.
Freud's version of a "vaginal orgasm" as being inherently superior to a "clitoral orgasm" is a myth. The idea that all women should experience "vaginal orgasm" is a myth. The idea that hell, all women have a gspot and should spend their time seeking it out is a myth. But the idea that no women do have gspots, and that no women do have orgasms from vaginal stimulation, and that the idea of an orgasm from vaginal stimulation is a myth? That's a myth, too. And I really hate seeing it propagated, as I so regularly do, as a means of liberating female sexuality.
Sarah TX — January 6, 2009
Who's saying that no women have orgasms due to penetrative sex? I don't think I've ever heard that. It's like saying, "Men ALWAYS orgasm from penetrative sex" - also not true.
The point is that the majority of women only occasionally, seldom, or rarely orgasm from penentration alone, and yet penetrative sex is held to be the goal post for sexual experience.
OP Minded — January 6, 2009
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You'll be happy to know that no self-respecting man has had a conversation about this issue EVER, under any circumstances. So, if any women are out there wondering or feeling "doubly bad" about the issue, be at ease. This is a topic men never, ever discuss.
Ryan — January 6, 2009
You ever get tired of the gyne-centric nature of Sociological images? God it reminds me of being back in art school. No son of mine is going to art school. It's obvious to me that art school is not gender neutral and all art teachers believe that only girls can be truly artistic as they are free of the perverse corrosion of the sex obsessed male psyche.
Look I'm sorry. But this is just not something I'm OK with. Personally I've out orgasms from column a and column b...but a birth orgasm (at least I think I have, dang third wave feminists got me all bug-a-boo). That sounds like be some weird fetish film scene. I wouldn't even believe that someone would think about something like that. Can you imagine your mom telling you that the best orgasm she ever had was when you were born?
Gah!
Lizz — January 6, 2009
The thing that always bugged me about this story and the 'scientific' explanation was that it really wasn't scientific, or even thought out. Just sitting here, without any research and using only my decently developed knowledge of basic biology and my own body, I could come up with a much better explanation.
If the cramps that come from the menstrual cycle are the muscles spasming to shed the buildup and push it out, isin't that what would be similar to labor pains? Just more so? And also, when a woman orgasms the vaginal muscles are spasming. Now, if a woman is in the midst of childbirth, her muscles are spasming and her hormones are racing, is it possible that the signals could get switched up and the muscle spasms that would be pain get interpreted as orgasms by the body and mind?
That sounds a lot more reasonable and scientific than "penis goes in a vagina, the vagina orgasms, if baby comes out of vagina, the vagina obviously must orgasm!"
Heather — January 7, 2009
While I myself didn't orgasm giving birth (I wish), I have heard of it.
I don't think it should be or is an expectation, but a pleasant surprise if it happens. Physiologically, there are a lot of reasons it could happen.
A lot of people asscociate the pain of cutting/peircing/tattooing with pleasure. The hormones going through the body (endorphins and adrenaline) are the same during extreme pleasure and extreme pain. The same areas of the brain are involved. It isn't much of a stretch to think that you could derive pleasure during a painful experience with the right mindset and situation, or that an extremely intense orgasm might actually "hurt".
The lady who was saying that women should be free to walk around, eat, drink etc during labour (assuming uncomplicated) is totally right. I was way more comfortable up on my feet, and I didn't really want to sit down until the pushing part.
Fernando — January 7, 2009
" Women have thus been defined sexually in terms of what pleases men"
What?! So now sex was invented by mankind, most specifically the "man" part? If there are sexual practices that were actually invented by us, inclunded among these are the ones aimed solely for the pleasure of females. Standard sex wasn't invented by us, and yes, I call it standard exactly because of that. It isn't ours.
Alana — January 7, 2009
Well I remember hearing or reading somewhere that birthing mothers and newborn children are flooded with oxytocin, the same chemical that is released during orgasm. Maybe that's where this is coming from, and it is not an anatomy issue but a biochemical one.
Nia — February 14, 2009
Fernando, men didn't invent human sexuality, but:
A) Men force women into sex more than the other way around, so they can define what sex is more often.
b) Men have had, up to the 1950's, the monopoly of the cultural converssation about sex. Do you remember any major work about sex written by a woman before that decade? Do you remember many women whose opinions about masculinity are widely respected? Yeah, I thought so.
Ellen — February 14, 2009
Fernando, men did not invent sexuality, that is not really the point. Most women learn they are supposed to have orgasms vaginally, and that there is something wrong with them if they don't. This is very common. In fact most women I know have gone through this. Only about 20-30% of women do have orgasms vaginally. That leaves 70-80% of women thinking there is something wrong with them. Don't you think there might be something wrong with that?
bellatrys — February 16, 2009
You’ll be happy to know that no self-respecting man has had a conversation about this issue EVER, under any circumstances. So, if any women are out there wondering or feeling “doubly bad” about the issue, be at ease. This is a topic men never, ever discuss.
Actually, OP Minded, this is false, unless you go the "no true Scotsman" route - I first encountered this idea expressed by a male author in a conservative Catholic magazine about 10 years ago. (He was claiming that women are lucky b/c we get orgasms going both ways...)
Anonymous — March 29, 2010
I believe that every woman is unique and is entitled to her unique experiences. Whether we want to label a vaginal orgasm as occurring in the vagina, separate from the clitoris, or generated in part of the clitoral root, the point is that the woman achieved pleasure. These experiences should neither be belittled, nor exulted. In a loving relationship, both partners can experiment and create a lovemaking repertoire to something that is uniquely enjoyable for the both of them.
A Girl Thing » Sociological Images — April 9, 2010
[...] See also Orgasmic Birth and the Myth of the Vaginal Orgasm. [...]
SereniT03 — April 9, 2010
This video (link below) presents an alternative look at the argument. According to her, the jury is in, and the G-spot is the female prostate, which is just as it is for many men, an untapped sexual resource for many. Even if she's incorrect about the prostate, we now know how big the clitoris really is (as a previous commenter stated, but it really bears repeating). We know that it's not just the small button of tissue that we typically think of when we think of the word 'clitoris'. And as such, it's completely viable that the g-spot is simply the back of the clitoris. Its a source of unique pleasure (not better or worse, thats up to the individual, and it doesn't need to be hierarchical any way) because of the penetration that is necessary to come in contact with it. But one could say (if one disputes the female prostate) that all orgasms are clitoral.
This vid is specifically about the g-spot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6PwGcf7daI
and here's one I like better, and the illustration is prettier too ;-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toOVAFItR8U
FN/ML (Friday Night Lights and/or FML) « Natter — April 9, 2010
[...] Everybody’s favorite topic: the Myth of the Vaginal Orgasm. [...]
grumphis — July 29, 2010
my mother had five children (i am the oldest) and last year she told me she had orgasms with the first four of us. i'm not a teenager anymore, but there you go. it was a little awkward at first, but thinking about it, she had an orgasm when we were conceived, and that was a good thing, so why not during childbirth? it's not like she was sexually assaulting us as we came down the birth canal. it was surprising to her when it happened.
she said having an orgasm during birth made her feel very connected to us during a time when she might have been scared (and the clinical nature of the hospital was very scary to her).
i have heard stories about saints who received epiphanies from god, and those sounded very orgasmic- but they're not perceived dirty in our culture. maybe more women have orgasms during birth but because of the shame around female sexuality (and the incongruity of receiving pleasure from something that's supposed to be painful) we just don't talk about it.
i'm a few years away from motherhood myself, but you can bet that i'm going to be looking out for that orgasm when i am in labour.
and by the way, i have clitoral orgasms and vaginal orgasms and they are different things.
Lindsay Beyerstein — February 1, 2011
Your standard orgasm is a spinal reflex that causes spasmodic contractions of the pelvic floor. The part of the spine that controls the reflex has both "bottom up" and "top down" inputs, i.e., nerve impulses from the genitals and input from the brain (which is processing all kinds of inputs from the senses, memory, fantasies, etc.). In theory, a person can reach the threshold of stimulation to trigger the reflex by any combination of bottom up or top down stimuli. For most people, most of the time, it takes both.
We take this for granted in men because wet dreams and "coming in your pants" (sometimes without any direct genital stimulation at all) are well-known phenomena. The same is true of women. There are women who can orgasm from mental imagery alone. But most women need bottom up stimulation, and direct or indirect stimulation of the nerves of the clitoris is the most efficient "bottom up" way to deliver the stimulation to the spinal reflex center. Intercourse can supply both top down and bottom up stimulation.
Depending on anatomy, position, and other factors, penetration can indirectly stimulate the same nerves that supply clitoris.
Also, the woman's brain is processing all the other stimuli and meanings associated with intercourse, which can supply "top down" stimulation to the reflex center--depending on individual tastes, values, experiences, meanings ascribed to sex, and a host of other factors. I.e., if intercourse is an otherwise intensely erotic/emotional/sensually pleasurable experience for you, your brain may be sending input to the reflex centers in your spinal cord that tip the balance towards orgasm.
Orgasms from vaginal penetration happen. There's no reason to elevate them above orgasms from any other stimulation or combination of stimuli. People are different. The same person responds differently at different times. It's all good.
I have no trouble believing that birth can, under certain unusual circumstances, trigger the orgasm reflex. And if you /believe/ that birth can be orgasmic, and interpret the physical sensations through that lens, it's probably more likely.
Women report this experience. Why would they lie? There are all kinds of hormonal and physical reasons that might trigger the reflex during labor. Then again, there are all kinds of factors that usually inhibit orgasm, like pain, a bunch of strangers watching you, the cultural assumption that childbirth is non-erotic.
If it happens, it happens. But anyone who tells you that orgasms are the "natural" default mode that everyone would enjoy if only they got into the appropriately crunchy frame of mind is bullshitting you and probably selling something. The same goes for hucksters who tell you that one way of having a sex orgasm is better or more special or more natural than another.
sharqi — July 30, 2011
I was married for 16 years, and never once had a penetrative orgasm. I only experienced orgasm through direct clitoral stimulation, and it was difficult at that. I divorced and experienced a lot of life changes. I now orgasm quite easily, definitely through penetration, but also through kissing or massage or simply loving touch.
I'm six months pregnant now, and as I have sought information about childbirth, I read Ina May Gaskin's Spiritual Midwifery. Here was a framework of childbirth that made sense to me. Orgasmic birth makes sense to me. I don't think Ina May, nor the director of the film imply that if you do not have an orgasmic birth, you are less than a woman. By all means, our bodies and minds are completely different.
If I were expected to have an orgasmic birth the way I was expected to have an orgasm during sex while married, I would most likely not have one. But knowing it's possible, and allowing my body and mind to entertain this possibility--well, I am certainly going to open myself up for whatever sensations I perceive happening. And if I have a massive orgasm during birth, well, hooray! It helps me personally to give away the fear and dread that most people who give birth in hospitals seem to have. (I am planning on birthing in a hospital, because I cannot afford to have an illegal home birth.)
I think this is what the film is about: the notion that other possibilities abound, whether or not people experience them as their own. It's possible to have an ecstatic joyful birth, without fear. It doesn't mean there's not pain, though some women don't experience birth as pain, but that women are strong. I feel like birth is an initiation, and I for one am glad to be going through this experience.
Guest — August 21, 2012
I'm sorry but as a woman who can orgasm on thought alone, have g-spot orgasms (prior to even knowing what a g-spot was I somehow found it) and 'squirt' (and no, I am not urinating because in fact every time I completely empty my bladder prior to sexual stimulation) I find your article is poorly researched, malinformed and just plain ignorant. You can't speak on behalf of all women.
Dildo Dilemma – The Paradox of Female Masturbation « Queeriodical — January 31, 2013
[...] vibrating phallus. Likewise, the on-going fascination with the G-spot, and more recently the orgasmic birth, constitute further attempts to re-centre the vaginal orgasm. Of course, this is likely to be an [...]