Flashback Friday.
In the contemporary U.S., individuals choose who to marry based on personal preference, but there is a specific script by which those choices become a wedding day. Not everyone follows the script, but everyone knows it: the man decides to ask the woman to marry him, he buys a ring, he arranges a “special” event, he proposes, and she agrees. Many of us grow up dreaming of a day like this.
But this isn’t the only possible way to decide to marry. A reverse script might involve female choice. We can imagine a world in which, instead of hoping to be chosen, women decide to propose and men can only marry if they get asked. Another alternative script might involve no proposal at all, one in which two people discuss marriage and come to a decision together without the pop question and uncertain answer.
Of course, many couples essentially decide to marry through months or years of discussion, but these couples frequently act out the script anyway because, well, it’s so romantic and wonderful.
Or is it?
Andre M. sent in a clip of John Preator, a finalist on a previous season of American Idol. In the clip, he proposes to his girlfriend Erica on Main Street at a Disneyland Resort. The clip exaggerates the patriarchal underpinnings of both marriage and the marriage proposal. It may or may not be real, but it doesn’t really matter for our purposes.
Here it is:
First, Andre says, the spectacle is a shining testament to our commitment to the idea of marriage as an ideal state. Everyone loves marriage! As Andre writes:
A whole rainbow of characters come out of the shadows to push her towards yes, from the smiling Asian janitor, to the African American guy knighted by our hero and his plastic phallus, to the disabled woman who wishes to trade her fate with the bride-to-be.
We are supposed to think: “How wonderful! How sweet! How perfect!” What is made invisible is the fact that, in addition to a potential site of wedded bliss, marriage is the site of the reproduction of patriarchal privilege (especially through women’s disproportionate responsibility for housework and childcare) and heterosexist (still excluding same sex couples). But the audience knows that they are supposed to feel elated for the couple and privileged to witness their special moment (whether they feel these things or not).
Second, the public nature of the proposal put a lot of pressure on her to say “yes.” The audience is asked to participate in urging her to agree to marry him (“come on folks, how about a little encouragement?!”). And the performers, as well as the performance itself, create conditions that look a lot like coercion. Could she have said “no” if she wanted to? As if breaking his heart wouldn’t have been deterrent enough, saying “no” would have disappointed the onlookers and ruined the performance. He put so much work into scripting the proposal and it was very clear what her line was. How many women, with less pressure, have nonetheless felt it difficult or impossible to say “no”?
Okay, so let’s assume that Erica did want to marry John and that they will live happily ever after. And let’s also assume that most marriage proposals in the U.S. do not come with this degree of pressure. The clip is still a nice reminder of (1) just how taken-for-granted marriage is as an ideal state (can you imagine her saying, “I love you more than life itself and I want to be with you forever, but marriage, no thanks!”) and (2) the way that the proposal script puts men in the position of getting to choose and women in the position of having to agree or go off script.
Originally posted in 2010.
Lisa Wade, PhD is an Associate Professor at Tulane University. She is the author of American Hookup, a book about college sexual culture; a textbook about gender; and a forthcoming introductory text: Terrible Magnificent Sociology. You can follow her on Twitter and Instagram.
Comments 96
JaneDoe — February 14, 2010
Agreed! I saw this clip and all I could think of was how uncomfortable it made me feel.
Pansy — February 14, 2010
I have good friends who decided to get married several years back. They booked a site, a photographer, and various other vendors. She was not "allowed" to tell anybody the date until he "proposed" with a ring, etc., several months later. The him-asking-her proposal was then their "official" proposal story, despite the fact that they had already planned the wedding. History had been washed so their engagement story fit the romantic ideal. The revised story included tears of surprise and everything.
Bethany — February 14, 2010
That was really creepy. Is that what passes for romance at Disney?
Bothered — February 14, 2010
There is currently a Folger's commercial that creeps me out in much the same way (I can't find it online or I would submit it to the blog)--in a nutshell, adult daughter (still living at home) comes in late one night, dad comments over breakfast that she was out late, daughter replies by saying he won't have to worry about that anymore and shows him the ring she received from her now fiance the night before, dad says he's a great guy--and adds 'that's what I told him when we talked last week', insinuating that the whole proposal had been planned, approved, and conducted behind her back. So, not only does the 'fantasy' of the man proposing come into play, but of him asking her father for approval. Ugh!
L — February 14, 2010
The other thing I think the video reveals about the proposal script is that, aside from the "yes" line, the woman isn't supposed to say anything or do anything at all. It was super icky how she was literally passive in this video: being told what to do, being pulled and pushed around by everyone, and not even given the megaphone until it was time for her to say her one little line. The proposal is all about the man and very little about proposing in the literal sense of the word, if we take this video as an example of how most proposals go.
Count me among the creeped-out. Gross.
Lemmons998 — February 14, 2010
The only thing it leaves out is the "asking dad for permission." I can think of 2 boyfriends I had in the past that had said if they ever proposed to me (or any other woman) they would talk to the father first. That's when the big warning light went off in my head and I knew the relationship would never get to that point.
I always assumed my wedding proposal would be as Pansy described. Actually talking about the possibilites and agreeing to it, and then doing the stereotypical thing once it's been agreed that we would marry. Then you get the fantasy and the practical.
Kunoichi — February 14, 2010
Oh. My. God. I am so glad I married a man that would never embaress me like that! I'd want the ground to split open and swallow me up.
Emma — February 14, 2010
You're doing a fair amount of speculating here. You're asking:
"How many women, with less pressure, have nonetheless felt it difficult or impossible to say “no”?"
But is there any way to come up with a qualified answer to that question? Yes, you're absolutely right that the woman is completely deprived of agency in the common representations of 'ideal' proposals, but at the same time, it bugs me to read analysises with experience-distant judgements of what women 'feel pressured' to do. I get that you're not making any claims to know what Erica wants, but I feel your interpretation rests a lot on stereotypes of womens' behaviour within patriarchy.
NEA — February 14, 2010
The Jezebel article below purports that this is a fake video and that Erika is an actress with another boyfriend. I'm not sure what's true but it certainly adds another layer if this was completely orchestrated by Disney, as opposed to a man wanting to propose.
http://jezebel.com/5304650/disneyland-musical-marriage-proposal-magical--romantic-or-lamest-scam-ever
ild — February 14, 2010
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLHKUnQC3bU
kb — February 14, 2010
My husband I got engaged by talking about how we wanted to get married, and then deciding to. We bought each other rings and one morning when mine arrived via FedEx, my husband gave it to me and from that point on we called ourselves engaged. Obviously I don't pretend that our situation was devoid of elements of the script - we still felt we needed rings on a finger to indicate that we were serious about getting married, but I am so happy that I wasn't surprised by a public proposal where I would be pressured to make one of the biggest decisions of my life in front of strangers. Of course, almost all of my friends feel bad for me that I was involved the the proposal planning process and didn't get the surprise and big to do.
Now that we're married with a child and I dress like a poor grad student all day, I rarely wear that engagement ring and often forget my wedding ring. My parents never had wedding rings so I didn't grow up believing that being married requires you to wear a ring on your finger 24/7. It's amazing how people act like I'm an adulteress purely because I don't wear my wedding ring. I swear the same friend has asked me at least 3 times why I don't wear my rings anymore.
mordicai — February 14, 2010
Squirm! Anyhow, my wife proposed to me. So there is that.
Emily — February 14, 2010
Fail Blog posted a series of public proposals where women said "no."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi1C3Tk_yZg
My partner and I were both really creeped out that someone would propose to someone else without knowing them well enough to know what the answer would be. It just seems so strange to me that they wouldn't have talked it over beforehand.
Then again, when we decided to get married, it was through a series of conversations in which we talked about what we wanted for our lives individually, and about what we did and didn't want our marriage to mean. When we told people that we were getting married, everyone asked for a proposal story (people still do), and I felt so awkward always having to say that we didn't have one, that we joked about just making one up. (We did, but it involved dinosaurs and space travel and ultimately didn't seem usable).
And don't even get me started on the wedding script...! LOL.
Ben — February 14, 2010
Though I've never done it myself, I would guess that the marriage proposal is heavily a performative act. The decision has already been made (though maybe tacitly) for the couple to be married, but it is only "official" when a certain set of actions have been performed. As long as someone isn't way off base with what the other wants, there's the same chance of rejection when the man is on one knee with a ring than there is on their wedding day when the officiant asks "do you take...."
It's obviously a cultural construct just the same as pretty much every other performative activity. Not that's that's good or bad, it simply is. Though I'm in agreement that the text of the "man asks on bended knee" style is patriarchal, the decision was obviously collaboratory.
And as an aside, the best "surprise pop the question" video is this one based around a street magician: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXtWN69Af-s
Jessie — February 14, 2010
I've been thinking about this lately. My best friend's sister is getting married in September - they've booked a venue, they have a date, she's already looking for wedding dresses. But she's always quick to say that she isn't "really" engaged yet, because her boyfriend hasn't "really" proposed (read: given her a ring). I find this so absurd. Why is their engagement not "real," simply because they haven't gone through the whole routine of his getting down on one knee and "popping the question" (which I'm sure she'll be completely surprised about)?
Ketchup — February 14, 2010
Second, the public nature of the proposal put a lot of pressure on her to say “yes.” The audience is asked to participate in urging her to agree to marry him (“come on folks, how about a little encouragement?!”). And the performers, as well as the performance itself, create conditions that look a lot like coercion. Could she have said “no” if she wanted to?
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I would bet all my money that they have talked about marriage before, more than once, and that she was just waiting for him propose sometime. There was no pressure whatsoever, just surprise at first. I didn't see her as being passive, she was waiting to see what he and the others were going to do next, since the whole performance didn't pause. What would one expect her to do, break out singing?
And then she was a little embarrassed, but not much. I bet she thought it was really sweet of him, much more than any big embarrassment. And she looks very touched by the whole trouble he went through, and the creativity in asking someone to put together a whole little musical for the occasion etc. Or maybe he mentioned to someone at Disney that he was thinking of getting engaged and some savvy producer came up with the idea.
No way he would have done this if he thought there was even the tiniest chance she would say no. And no way Disney would have thrown money out the window with an entire production crew afternoon, plus all the pre-production work, to have an unexpected bad result.
Ketchup — February 14, 2010
The clip is still a nice reminder of (1) just how taken-for-granted marriage is as an ideal state
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I think the clip says how special and important marriage is. And therefore, the occasion for proposing is itself very special. It's not so much about idealism.
Regarding people having the illusion of marriage as being constantly in a ideal state, I wonder if that is still true.
It is certainly true that for the most part, the Catholic Church and other protestant denominations certainly require or strongly advise engaged couples to go through marriage preparation exactly so the couple can reflect and try to prepare for marriage, including all the problems that could derail it. The objective is prevention. It goes against letting people to walk into marriage with greatly distorted idealized expectations about marriage or because of the wrong reasons.
It would be interesting to compare couples who got married without this type of preparation and see if they married with more of an illusory state of mind then those who followed the church programs.
caity — February 14, 2010
I had a friend who was a relatively devout (but not veil wearing) Lebanese-Australian muslim. After years fighting her parents over who she could date, a nice Lebanese-Australian boy asked his mother to ask her mother if they could go out. Within weeks they were engaged (since it was the only way they could be alone together) and within months they were happily married.
After the wedding, she showed me a DVD they had had prepared. It was a movie which depicted a very romcom style fantasy about how they met and fell in love - initial disklike, lots chance meetings going opposite directions on escalators, tripping over each other at the beach and so forth - just about every romcom trope you can name. The whole thing was a complete fabrication and had cost them thousands of dollars.
I found it very strange that, even though they'd gotten together in a perfectly normal way (for their culture) they felt that they had to create this idealised and highly Western fantasy of their romance.
Tiago — February 14, 2010
I didn't bother to watch the clip, honestly, but what a killer analysis, I love it..
queenstuss — February 14, 2010
I'm interested to know how often it is a complete surprise when a man proposes to a woman. That to me seems like such a hollywood view of marriage. Maybe I'm ignorant, but I was of the assumption that most couples have already discussed the idea of marriage before one proposed to the other. Am I wrong?
i would have been horrified if someone had proposed to me without me expecting it!
Anonymous — February 14, 2010
So painful I couldn't watch the whole video. Recently a woman's Olympic Torch run was interupted so her boyfriend could propose. She seemed happy he was sharing her moment but I was cringing.
namnezia — February 14, 2010
There's a deeper creepiness to all of this that I am having trouble expressing. I'm more disturbed that anyone would consider Disney's "Main Street" as an adult destination for a genuine experience. In essence this is a scripted wedding proposal in a simulated Main Street in a simulated American town by simulated celebrities (the american idol winner). Not only are they buying into this whole marriage proposal script, but they are buying into this whole Disney reality as being a true substitute for an actual social space. We think of celebrity lives as a proxy for our lives, as these manufactured public spaces as being real public spaces and as this storybook "proposal" as something "out of a movie". What creeps me out is this substitution of manufactured experiences for actual genuine experiences.
my life needs less wedding talk — February 14, 2010
There's a woman at my job (where there's a lot of wedding talk - two people are getting married in the next couple of months) who has said things once or twice that make it sound like she's just waiting for her boyfriend to propose, and it bugs me so much. I keep wanting to say, "Why don't you ask him? Or have a discussion about if this is what you two want out of your future?" Sadly, I've only been there a couple of months and don't feel like I know her well enough to say it.
Carolyn — February 15, 2010
I'm really hoping that this stunt was just that - a Disney-esque stunt. That would reduce the creepy factor enormously for me.
This episode is about performance.
Reminds me of what my girlfriends now call my "Date Of The Century" many years ago. A man I knew casually at the time asked me to go out with him on a surprise outing - 'wear something casually elegant' was all he said. The following Saturday, he picked me up at 10 a.m. in a chauffeur-driven limo (!) that then drove us (with orange juice and champagne!) to our downtown harbour where we caught a float plane to the big city nearby. He had made lunch reservations for us there at an expensive seafood restaurant. All this time, I had no idea what other over-the-top thrill was coming up next.
After lunch, we caught a taxi to the theatre district where he had bought great tickets to see the matinee of "Cats". The show was followed by a fabulous dinner with mutual friends (who were all in on the surprise) and who then drove us to the airport later, where he'd booked our flight home in time for a late evening of dancing at a private club.
As fabulous as this surprise experience may sound, and as impressive as the organization and MONEY that these plans required was, I felt increasingly uncomfortable as the hours went by.
Mostly, because like the Disneyland video, this seemed to be a big show. It was all about HIM, his cleverness and money, and not about me. I had just seen 'Cats' three weeks earlier, for example - a fact he hadn't bothered finding out. He also didn't know if I were allergic to seafood or prone to airsickness on little floatplanes. That whole day wasn't about me at all!
And that's the problem with this Disney proposal. None of it had anything to do with the woman. It was all about the show-off at the centre of the extravaganza.
CB — February 15, 2010
I couldn't even bring myself to watch this clip, but I'm really squeamish about watching embarrassing situations for some reason. Actually it reminds me of a comic book I had as a kid, where the artist (Rob Liefeld) proposed to his girlfriend via a series of crudely-drawn panels. In both that case and this one, it seems self-centered to interrupt everything and draw attention to your love life. Why should the rest of us give a shit?
My girlfriend did the traditional down-on-one-knee thing with me when we were in college btw. We just never got around to getting married... =P Maybe someday. Even then, it'll only be for the financial/legal benefits - our commitment has nothing to do with a piece of paper signed by a complete stranger!
Ketchup — February 15, 2010
namnezia 9:38 pm on February 14, 2010 | # | Reply
There’s a deeper creepiness to all of this that I am having trouble expressing. I’m more disturbed that anyone would consider Disney’s “Main Street” as an adult destination for a genuine experience. In essence this is a scripted wedding proposal in a simulated Main Street in a simulated American town by simulated celebrities (the american idol winner). Not only are they buying into this whole marriage proposal script, but they are buying into this whole Disney reality as being a true substitute for an actual social space. We think of celebrity lives as a proxy for our lives, as these manufactured public spaces as being real public spaces and as this storybook “proposal” as something “out of a movie”. What creeps me out is this substitution of manufactured experiences for actual genuine experiences.
and
And that’s the problem with this Disney proposal. None of it had anything to do with the woman. It was all about the show-off at the centre of the extravaganza.
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I disagree. This proposal is certainly about the woman, but it's also about him and about showbiz, so it's a big mix. Although, not knowing the Idol guy, and knowing much more about Disney, I would think the "musical proposal" idea came from a producer once he found out the Idol guy was thinking of proposing. I can picture the now-bride with her grandchildren around her, telling them happily, " and then your grandfather took out this orange megaphone in the middle of the crowd..., etc etc." I can picture her telling all her friends right now.
The proposal itself seemed quite genuine to me. Neither of them seemed to be faking it, but then one couldn't rule it out. What I mean is, maybe someone paid the Idol guy 50K to lie to his girlfriend in front of everybody that he wanted to marry her, but they don't give that impression right offhand. And then, the guy's aim in life is to be in showbiz, I would think, so he uses his artistic skills and the medium to propose. You can't say it's incoherent, but then it does border or cross a line of using the event as a publicity stunt for himself. That bothers me. Then again, I could imagine a young showbiz guy doing that without actually having a Machiavellian mind behind his thoughts, but where he actually thinks this is a cool, original way to propose to her.
The way I see it, it's not a question of lack of sincerity or of genuineness, but of private versus public format. And it's not simply that the proposal occurred in a public setting, but on public display. As I said before, I think their private discussions about marriage have already taken place, in private.
I also don't understand the meaning of "manufactured social space" here. The people in this social space are real people walking about and engaging in a leisure activity by choice. The crowd, aside from the obviously hired singers and production crew, is not an artificially hired crowd. And then he said he took her there because that's where they first met. We don't know if it's true. It's suspicious but it could have happened. But it's a sweet thought too for an idea of where to propose, to go back where you first met. He's not the first to have thought of it.
Ketchup — February 15, 2010
And then, on the issue of the institution of marriage and locating where the problems really lie, I have this anecdote. I personally know the people involved. So this guy, 15-20 years back, decides to form a couple, but says he will not get married because marriage is such a horrible civil institution (without even considering any religion), it's just a ridiculous piece of paper, it's all hypocrisy, yada yada yada.
Very well, so they don't get married, form a couple and have two children. Fast forward 20 years later, their non-married marriage is in a completely chaotic and distraught state, "wife" kicks "husband" out of the house right before Xmas, she can't take it anymore. "Husband" is devastated, refuses to leave, stalls. She takes off with the kids to spend Xmas with her family. Husband is left, in pieces, and is desperately searching for an affair to feel someone likes him. (I don't know how much adultery was a problem in their relationship before, but I have a bad impression).
In a conversation with a friend, the guy says, "I don't understand what happened. I didn't want to get married because I didn't want to fall into all the traps that I saw married people around fall into. How could we have ended up like this?" In the same conversation, half an hour earlier, guy exalted the fact that less and less people are getting married today, and that they were just living together, that this was a magnificent sign of progress in society.
Friend was too speechless to respond to the lack of consciousness of the "I don't understand what happened" statement.
Belle :) — February 15, 2010
I grew up on Disney movies. They will remain my favorite stories for the rest of my life. And in those movies and stories, there's singing and dancing, and love is expressed in a dramatic performance. And I love those parts the best.
--But I think if my boyfriend ever started to sing to me (other than the low-singing in your ear while you dance to your favorite song-singing) I would probably be less attracted to him. But I'm not dating a giant showboat like the guy in the video. I'm not in love with a diva. I think he would be too embarrassed to try this performance--and I'm grateful for that. Because as much as I love my Disney dreams...I would find this performance terrifying as hell.
Jessi — February 15, 2010
Oh god. If my now-husband had done this... I would have been horrified.
Then again, I could never be with anyone that would think this was a good idea. Our 'proposal' was a conversation, which was very special to both of us. :D
Samantha C — February 15, 2010
I haven't had a chance to watch the video, but on the topic simply of public proposals...I would love one. I understand that it's all influenced by the culture I've grown up in, but I would love to have the experience of a surprise proposal - AFTER a good long while of dating and mutual decisions to spend the rest of our lives together. I think you can condemn the idea of the public proposal if you really want to, but I tend to think of it as something really special. It's an announcement of love to the world at large, and I would want to be with someone who would want to announce that. I just don't think you can assume that whenever the Public Proposal happens, it's the first the woman's heard of marriage.
I've been to tons of baseball games and seen tons of proposals over the big-screen. It'd absolutely not be okay for a guy to do something like that without knowing how his girlfriend would react, but every time I've seen it, it's been well-recieved. I'm also curious whether your opinions would change if a woman arranged something similar, a proposal to her boyfriend in public, with or without talking to him beforehand?
annee — February 18, 2010
This scene is very Disneyland. I cannot say I felt she was pressured. It was quite obvious to me that she was an actress/performer as well. I didn't even question it until I read others comments.
For Disney standards, I find it tame.
Mark — February 19, 2010
I found this piece doubly cringe-inducing. The stone-age patriarchal manipulation of the idiot proposer on the one hand, and the marriage-hating blather of the author of the piece on the other.
According to the author, "marriage is the site of the reproduction of patriarchal privilege (especially through women’s disproportionate responsibility for housework and childcare)..." Really? I feel like it's a time capsule from around 1971, when feminism lost the support of most women. Check out recent studies of who most wants to get married--and with good reason. (When men walk away from marriage, that's when things really get unpleasant for women in almost every index.) And, look up recent studies on the distribution of houshold labor among couples middle-aged and younger. The 1950s are over. It's time to hang up the self-defeating ideological anachronisms. I'm a college professor, and each year as we discuss feminism, maybe two or three students out of each class of 25 or so claim to be feminists because most men and women in their early twenties think it entails believing tripe like the above quote. I have to teach them that being a feminist at its heart is far more humane, common-sensical and flexible.
Mark — February 20, 2010
Hey Ketchup,
I think feminists are about as diverse as capitalists or Democrats or Christians. I think the enduring goal is equal rights, equal opportunities. a chance for women to reach their full potential as individuals. Different groups, different generations define that goal differently, yes? The angry, self-isolated feminists of the early 1970s exist, but they are a more powerful rhetorical tool of the far right now, I think than an actual force in their own right. They've utterly lost the hearts and minds battle for young women.
What are the current goals? Here's mine. I'm a feminist because I believe in equal pay for equal work. I believe all career paths should be open to anyone of equal merit, regardless of gender. I think new mothers (and fathers--whoever needs it) deserve leave from work, and some community support. I'm a feminist because I believe women deserve full participation in the political process. I'm a feminist because I don't believe women should have to deal with sexual harassment on the job or anywhere else. I'm a feminist because I object to objectification of women for commercial purposes. I'm a feminist because I think women's sports merit as many scholarships and financial support as men's sports in high school and college. I'm a feminist because I think giving loans to women in south Asia seems to be a demonstrably more effective way of lifting impoverished economies than giving the same loans to men. I am a feminist because I believe the human and civil rights of women around the world should carry some weight in the diplomatic policy of the U.S., and is rightly an area of concern for the U.N. It is, afterall, one of the prime areas of ideological conflict between us and radical Islam. And rightly so.
Like almost all Americans, I do oppose late-term abortions and the view that marriage is inherently patriarchal or oppressive. But why should these radical, minority positions be the definition of a feminist?
In a world in which there are many countries which deny women access to education or medical attention, or the right to refuse a marriage proposal or arranged marriage, the term "feminist" is still essential and relevant. And because feminism is relevant, we will continue to debate what it means. So assume the name and stake out a meaning for yourself. At least, that's what I tell my students. Feminism is whatever emerges from public discourse as people debate it. It's not what either Rush Limbaugh or the 1970s feminists he lampoons says it means.
Mark — March 20, 2010
Hey Ketchup,
I hear you. But couldn't your comment describe "The Republican Party", which is in the middle of an identity crisis, a struggle to stake out its meaning? Or "Islam" which has any range of meanings about which people are currently battling? Or "marriage". Surely you don't suggest abandoning support for marriage because some people's definitions of it depart from your own. Why not think the same way about feminism? That there is a wider range of opinions among feminists testifies to the relevance of the movement. And, most young feminists hold the definition of feminism that I proposed, and feel alienated by the more radical wing of feminism. So if anyone should feel disgusted by the current situation of feminism, it's the radicals, not the moderates. Be of good cheer, sensible feminist friend.
Finally, good classroom discussions reflect the real world, not some abstraction removed from daily life. Wouldn't you say? We academics should be discussing exactly the things that are being contested outside the walls of academia.
Ketchup — March 20, 2010
@Mark:
But couldn’t your comment describe “The Republican Party”,
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Definitely. In fact, this very example crossed my mind while I was writing my reply, but I decided to leave out of my reply that this happens to other labels as well and move on to other comments.
However, you see, with "feminism," in the non-academic world, depending on the environment, things can go awry very quickly. I am not sure how much exposure you have to non-academic environments, but I am obliged to navigate many environments where I have to interact with people whose minds are loaded with stereotypes about feminism that have nothing to do with me. And here is where the difference with a classroom lies. In a class, you can talk to your students, discuss all these stereotypes, etc. Believe me, in so many non-academic environments, there is no opportunity for this kind of discussion. The first thing people will do is to slap you with their stereotype and then it goes all downhill very quickly.
Cognitive selection and steep reinforcement of stereotype will follow. They don't care to stop and think about any of this. And you do not have the opportunity to talk to people about it, to read articles together, to discuss, to make them write papers, etc etc. Their minds just go on and on spinning. And it gets nasty, it gets very nasty. I mean, the negative stereotypes will influence how they act towards you, it's not just a theoretical disagreement. I'm just not in such a privileged position to be able to do all this public education work with the idiots I'm forced to interact with. Just navigating without inviting even more complications is hard enough. ;-)
And it's not just people I'm *obliged* to interact with. As you well know, people come in big mixtures of stupid and nice. There are some people who I think are quite cool, but who are on the dim-witted side when it comes to thinking about such things as "the labels of feminism." It's wanting too much.
About labels, one good development that I think happened, for example, is the split of "conservatives" into "social" and "fiscal." I see a lot of people employing this distinction nowadays. It's crucial, it makes so many conversations clearer. It's absolutely essential that we devise more clear labels for everyday talk. But then so much of this depends on masses of people adopting certain concepts and vocabulary. It's complicated. (I don't know if I am sounding completely trite here, but it's not my intention!)
I think a bit of this sub-typing did happen with feminism at times, but these other sub-type labels of "feminism" didn't catch on very well. But it's one idea. Although I prefer your objective to stake out a meaning that's not just representing the fringes and have that as the more common meaning of feminism. I also think part of this fringe stereotyping of "feminist" was deliberate by anti-feminists as a general smearing and discrediting tactic. Then, at least to me, there is the association of the root "femin..." and it's too restrictive, too women-ONLY for the moment we are living now, so it doesn't help. And too many women with a homosexual mindset wrestled feminism away from other women and men, "feminist" for many people in society has become an euphemism or synonym for lesbian.
"Finally, good classroom discussions reflect the real world, not some abstraction removed from daily life. Wouldn’t you say? We academics should be discussing exactly the things that are being contested outside the walls of academia."
I totally agree. Then again, certain academic environments are like little cocoons. The rules and the consequences are very different than in the non-academic world. And so should academia be like this because it opens up the necessary space for you to do this kind of work.
Unfortunately in this case, I have to say that one is obliged to choose their battles, and I have other rather big ones on my list.
lyssa — July 17, 2010
So...I'm wrong for thinking this is cute?
I mean, I know it's fake, but I still think so. Taken as a real situation, I still like it/
ktrig — November 23, 2010
Like it or not, marriage and dating are still male-dominated institutions. Friends whose marriages lean strongly towards the egalitarian are the first to tell me, "Sheesh, I didn't know how patriarchal marriage was until I tried to buck all these traditions. Marriage has its good points, but the institution is still so male-dominated." People who attack feminists for telling the truth about contemporary marriage are in denial.
If a woman plays a Waity Katie, that's patriarchal. If a man plays around and whines about commitment while his girlfriend pushes him to pop the question, that's patriarchal. If a woman takes her husband's name, that's patriarchal. The list goes on and on.
Marriage Musings Blog Post #3 | "…morning light, scarfed in sun-dazzle, shines forth from the south and brings another daybreak to the world." — December 17, 2010
[...] for every couple. Yet our culture has this routine heavily ingrained. Lisa Wade, Ph.D. says in an article in The Society Pages, “Not everyone follows the script, but everyone knows it: the man decides to ask the woman to [...]
Faith — July 11, 2011
As an aspiring bride I notice the current societally approved image of the typical engagement is not really one of masculine domination- a man on one knee below the woman, looking up at her with anticipation and admiration, begging for the honor of her partnership in life. I don't really see anything overtly patriarchal about it. I personally think painting a portrait of a woman as a victim in a situation that she's not one is more oppressive and as a woman I think rather upsetting than the situation you suggest.
Cristian Redondo — September 21, 2015
women have the choice to say yes, however they will say yes 90% of the time out of that 90% maybe only 40% really mean it the other 50% only say yes because they might think they will not be asked again or don't want to break her partner's heart.
I have never seen a woman asked a guy to marry him they always want to get chosen why not just chose and not wait around. If you want to marry him already just ask don't wait around. Break the Script
FARE CHALA — November 28, 2017
How patriarchy manifested in marriage ? please I need some explanation about this
Nedion — November 5, 2021
The relationship between men and women has undergone a great change now. People have become freer, more liberated. The women realized that they had the right to say no. Often romantic relationships begin with together2night. Online resources gave us additional opportunities for communication and this is great for me.
Rebecca — March 3, 2022
I agree with the last comment. Modern relations have turned in a different direction. But I like that I can make more free choices than my mother or grandmother. No, I am against thoughtless meetings. But I know that I can choose a new partner very quickly if I use onenightfriend. Modern websites make life a lot easier.