Laura Agustin, author of Sex at the Margins: Migration, Labour Markets, and the Rescue Industry, asks us to be critical consumers of stories about sex trafficking, the moving of girls and women across national borders in order to force them into prostitution. Without denying that sex trafficking occurs or suggesting that it is unproblematic, Agustin wants us to avoid completely erasing the possibility of women’s autonomy and self-determination.
About one news story on sex trafficking, she writes:
…[the] ‘undercover investigation’, one with live images, fails to prove its point about sex trafficking… reporters filmed men and women in a field, sometimes running, sometimes walking, sometimes talking together.
…I’m willing to believe that we’re looking at prostitution, maybe in an informal outdoor brothel. But what we’re shown cannot be called sex trafficking unless we hear from the women themselves whether they opted into this situation on any level at all. They aren’t in chains and no guns are pointed at them, although they might be coerced, frightened, loaded with debt or wishing they were anywhere else. But we don’t hear from them. I’m not blaming the reporters or police involved for not rushing up to ask them, but the fact is that their voices are absent.
…
There are lots of things we might find out about the fields near San Diego… [but] we don’t see evidence for the sex-trafficking story. Feeling titillated or disgusted ourselves does not prove anything about what we are looking at or about how the people actually involved felt.
Regarding a news clip, Agustin writes:
…a reporter dressed like a tourist strolls past women lined up on Singapore streets, commenting on their many nationalities and that ‘they seem to be doing it willingly’. But since he sees pimps everywhere he asks how we know whether they are victims of trafficking or not? His investigation consists of interviewing a single woman who… articulates clearly how her debt to travel turned out to be too big to pay off without selling sex. Then an embassy official says numbers of trafficked victims have gone up, without explaining what he means by ‘trafficked’ or how the embassy keeps track…
So here again, there could be bad stories, but we are shown no evidence of them. The women themselves, with the exception of one, are left in the background and treated like objects.
To recap, what Agustin is urging us to do is to refrain from excluding the possibility of women’s agency by definition. Why might a woman choose a dangerous, stigmatized, and likely unpleasant job? Well, many women enter prostitution “voluntarily” because of social structural conditions (e.g., they need to feed their children and prostitution is the most economically-rewarding work they can get). Assuming all women are forced by mean people, however, makes the social structural forces invisible. We don’t need mean pimps to force women into prostitution, our own social institutions do a pretty good job of it.
And, of course, we must also acknowledge the possibility that some women choose prostitution because they like the work. You might say, “Okay, fine, there may be some high-end prostitutions who like the work, but who could possibly like having sex with random guys for $20 in dirty bushes?” Well, if we decide that the fact that their job is shitty means that they are “coerced” in some way, we need to also ask about those people that “choose” other potentially shitty jobs like migrant farmwork, being a cashier, filing, working behind the counter at an airline (seriously, that must suck), factory work, and being a maid or janitor. There are lots of shitty jobs in the U.S. and world economy. Agustin simply wants us to give women involved in prostitution the same subject status as women and men doing other work.
Lisa Wade, PhD is an Associate Professor at Tulane University. She is the author of American Hookup, a book about college sexual culture; a textbook about gender; and a forthcoming introductory text: Terrible Magnificent Sociology. You can follow her on Twitter and Instagram.
Comments 76
Getting Mainstream Attention - Judging Trafficking Evidence « Bound, Not Gagged — December 31, 2008
[...] spread, and called it Thinking Critically about Sex Trafficking, and it might be a good idea to visit the site and reinforce some of the message. The blog is one of a bunch of sociological ones clustered at [...]
maxine doogan — December 31, 2008
Media has to take responsibility for sensationalizing the sex industry, and profiting off that sesationalizm as a means to continue the criminalization of prostitution, immigration as featured by law enforcement officers who conflate immigration with forced labor and prostitution. And vice versa. They used the word ‘secret’ over and over again. Like they’re preteens finding out for the first time how babies are made or that there is no Santa Clause. This ‘news’ piece demonstrates how invested media outlets are with promoting ideas of ‘secrets’ and sex. They fetishize sex this type of sex by contrasting it with the white and entitled jogger going by the ‘outdoor sex camp’. Using words like ‘maybe’ and ‘may have’ so many times terms this story nothing more than a story.
Specifically, this ‘news' manufacturer fails to take into account how it perpetuates and profits off the criminalization of prostitution and immigration by only giving air time to the Halliburton law enforcement profiteers who clearly create the situation whereby workers, either consensually or not, are forced to work in the ‘out door sex camps…brothel in the bushes’ because of the criminalization of prostitution and immigration. Featuring law enforcement officers’ using words like ‘captives’, ‘teenagers’ and ‘treated as animals’ with no evidence of such sharply contrasts the actual facts presented which are that people are having sex in the bushes and no charges are brought after arrests for prostitution. The statement that ‘nobody wants to testify’, like the rest of this commentary, is purely speculation. You can’t even really call it reporting. And we as a society can’t keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. By not holding these media outlets accountable for this poor excuse for ‘news’ no matter how many sex acts they film in the bushes we are only encouraging them and the law enforcement agencies to both profit off the criminalization of prostitution and immigration, forced or not.
Media spying to gain ratings and law enforcement agents being paid on the public dime to watch people having sex in bush has to stop immediately to end the insanity.
Susan — December 31, 2008
In the first video, you have two individuals who are considered privileged in our society--a TV news reporter and a police officer--hiding in the bushes, spying on a group of people in a field with binoculars and cameras.
Ordinarily, engaging in this type of voyeurism can be considered illegal in some instances, and amoral in most instances. Granted, the people in the field were in a public place, but I think the spying on them with cameras overstepped boundaries, even in the age of YouTube.
But of course, since the people in the field were allegedly engaged in prostitution, our larger society assumes that these individuals' right to privacy is forfeit, and if we want to film their activities, even for our own profit, we are entitled to do so.
And as Laura Augustin pointed out on another blog, the TV reporter was dressed in a safari-looking outfit, strongly suggesting that the people in the field are to be considered little more than animals--like monkeys or hyenas--going about their activities and mating rituals while humans watched.
And of course there is nothing the people in field can do about this violation, because they are most likely illegal immigrants with no rights or privileges, therefore they cannot sue or protest this voyeurism. And the TV reporter and police officer probably were well aware of this, and therefore felt they could do what they did with impunity.
One can argue that if people engage in public sex, their right to privacy is forfeit. But at the same time, the right to privacy would still apply when having that public sex broadcast on a TV news program. But when it comes to (alleged) prostitution, and by (alleged) illegal immigrants, then those rules fly out the window, and a TV reporter can have the vicarious and illicit thrill of being a Peeping Tom (and recording her adventures) without all the legal ramifications that would ensue under a different circumstance.
Ann Bartow — January 1, 2009
Can we call it trafficking if the women were actually young girls? Because that is what a synopsis the related news report says:
"This is a news report done by Ana Garcia in 2003 which has dramatic footage of child prostitution where Mexican sex traffickers brought Mexican children to the Vista migrant camp for prostitution. This is the same Mexican crime syndicate brought to the world's attention with Peter Landesman's The Girls Next Door article where it was revealed that under-aged girls as young as 9 years old were being brought for mass prostitution in the San Luis Rey riverbed in Vista and Oceanside, California.Local law enforcement has been ordered to not associate Oceanside, Vista, and Carlsbad with the sex trafficking of Mexican minors since so much money is tied up in development and they don't want anyone to get the idea that Mexican children are being sex trafficked regularly to San Diego County. Ana Garcia also revealed sex trafficking of Mexican minors and prostitution at the McGonigle Canyon migrant camps and footage was taken showing the girls having sex with the migrants and other "johns" who came to have sex with the children. The racist SDPD (San Diego Police Department) failed to protect these girls because they were Mexican and because the McGonigle Canyon migrant camp was a "no go zone" so they refused to stopped the prostitution of Mexican children. John Monti turned in a grand jury complaint about this which the illuminati of San Diego County spiked, but couldn't since the press conference after was videotaped and the North County Times ran an article on it. Assistant Chief Boyd Long, SDPD, continued to deny knowledge of the sex trafficking of Mexican minors in McGonigle Canyon to be politically correct at the cost of the lives of Mexican children. It is irrefutable that the SDPD knew that girls were being trafficked to McGonigle Canyon, yet no one refuses to investigate the SDPD because the lives of undocumented Mexican children who are sex trafficked don't count and the city and county government is tightly controlled. The Mexican child sex traffickers as recently as June 2008 are known to have set up another "outdoor brothel" in the area of Rancho Penasquitos. There is yet to be any public acknowledgement of what had been happening in McGonigle Canyon and no formal apology to Mexican and Central American families whose daughters had been abducted and trafficked for prostitution. Maybe if the girls had Anglo names like Danielle Van Dam..... "
Guess what, in 2006 another investigation found that those nine year old girls were still showing "agency" in the same area:
http://www.truveo.com/San-Diego-Slave-Trade-McGonigle-Canyon-Part-5-of-7/id/1162051269
Let me further respond with a couple of links:
http://feministlawprofs.law.sc.edu/?p=4526
http://feministlawprofs.law.sc.edu/?p=2446
Ann Bartow — January 1, 2009
Oh, and here is what a NYT reporter concluded in this article in 2004:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B04EEDA1439F936A15752C0A9629C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all
"The operating assumption among American police departments is that women who sell their bodies do so by choice, and undocumented foreign women who sell their bodies are not only prostitutes (that is, voluntary sex workers) but also trespassers on U.S. soil. No Department of Justice attorney or police vice squad officer I spoke with in Los Angeles -- one of the country's busiest thoroughfares for forced sex traffic -- considers sex trafficking in the U.S. a serious problem, or a priority. A teenage girl arrested on Sunset Strip for solicitation, or a group of Russian sex workers arrested in a brothel raid in the San Fernando Valley, are automatically heaped onto a pile of workaday vice arrests."
Feminist Law Professors » Blog Archive » Thinking Critically About Sex Trafficking — January 1, 2009
[...] the title of this post at Sociological Images. It asserts that readers: … ought be critical consumers of stories about sex trafficking, the [...]
Susan — January 1, 2009
Ann Bartow,
We can't automatically assume that any sex worker is automatically a trafficked person, but on the other hand, you do make a valid point in regards to police officers.
The police could care less about any trafficked person. All they care about is making their arrest quota, and arresting prostitutes is the way to do that. A very good argument for decriminalization, don't you think.
Susan — January 2, 2009
In defense of Laura Augustin, perhaps it was later proven that this was indeed a trafficking ring, but that's not the point of the presentation. The point is that we don't hear the voices of the women being filmed without their knowledge. Which when you think about it, is a form of exploitation in and of itself.
Ann Bartow — January 2, 2009
I agree that selling sex should be decriminalized. And I think trafficked people should be assisted, especially people trafficked for sex, who are the most likely of all trafficked people to be victims of violence and to contract serious diseases. As Ana Garcia reported, men pay extra to have sex without condoms. The traffickers could care less if the girls get sick, because they are easily replaced. In fact, the linked NYT article reports that when they are no longer useful, or if hey are difficult or try to escape, the girls are simply killed, just another unidentified body in the dessert.
I disagree strongly that we should simply look away and ignore blatant acts of sex trafficking, especially of children. If that is not what Augustin is advocating, why did she chose this particular example? It's made very clear by reporter Ana Garcia that young girls are involved. Young Mexican girls mostly, who may not be in the U.S. legally, so apparently Augustin thinks we aren't supposed to care about violence being inflicted on them, we are just supposed to pretend they've chosen serial rape, because hey, life is hard. Which plays into the hands of the trafficking pimps very nicely.
Ann Bartow — January 2, 2009
As far as hearing the voices of the women, the woman who explains the fees collected by the "lookout" are "$20 with a condom, $30 without" does just that. Unlike Agustin, she and other people care about these girls and are actively trying to help them. You can read more here:
http://www.libertadlatina.org/LatAm_US_San_Diego_Crisis_Index.htm
Or just look away, your choice Susan.
maxine doogan — January 2, 2009
Ann Bartow said:
"As far as hearing the voices of the women, the woman who explains the fees collected by the “lookout” are “$20 with a condom, $30 without” does just that. Unlike Agustin, she and other people care about these girls and are actively trying to help them."
Where's the evidence that these people are 'girls' as in under 18 years of age in the first place? There was no evidence of such presented in this story. None. So to continue to refer to people as 'girls' reveals your own agenda. Secondly, we don't even know for sure these people are female. What if they are bio boys? And finally, the woman you quote as a qualified source is a poverty pimping not for profit' war on the whore profiteer who usurps the workers' voices by being the identified 'authority' by the manufacture of media. This relationship has to be exposed as the basis for mutual benefit to these parties who support the criminalization of migration and prostitution polices. Everytime I see one of these stories, I call up the reporter, producer and the interviewees and ask for the evidence and they never have any. Never.
Ann Bartow — January 2, 2009
Maxine,
Many of the people in the news report do look very young, but I case you don't subscribe to the view that "seeing is believing." Well, if they are enslaved, it doesn't actually matter to me that much what their ages are.
However, it makes all the different to many law enforcement officials, who all too often will help trafficked girls, but arrest trafficked women who are eighteen or over. The FBI is primarily interested only in enslaved children:
http://www.ecpat.net/EI/resource_newsclippings.asp?id=693
Almost every feminist I know supports the decriminalization of selling sex. But legislation that moves in that direction gets opposed by people like you, for whom there is never ever enough proof of trafficking to justify actually helping trafficked people.
About three seconds of google research would show you the evidence beyond what Ana Garcia reported that the girls are both young and trafficked. If you cared.
People who actually want to inform themselves can learn more about the situation in San Diego here, for starters:
http://www.captivedaughters.org/sandiego-english.htm
And more generally:
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=912250
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=984927
Ann Bartow — January 2, 2009
I responded to Maxine but my comment has not made it through moderation, possibly because it contained a number of links. There will never be enough proof for Maxine and her ilk, but for people who want to know more about the situation in San Diego, in addition to the links I placed in the pending comment, go here:
http://www.actionnetworksd.org/ManoloArticle03.html
Ann Bartow — January 2, 2009
And though it is not related to the situation in the canyons, a guilty plea in a trafficking case in San Diego was entered in December:
http://sandiego.fbi.gov/dojpressrel/pressrel08/sd120408a.htm
I assume the FBI got involved because the victim was a juvenile. I wish the FBI cared more about trafficked adults.
Ann Bartow — January 2, 2009
Maxine,
Many of the people in the news report do look very young, but I case you don't subscribe to the view that "seeing is believing." Well, if they are enslaved, it doesn't actually matter to me that much what their ages are.
However, it makes all the different to many law enforcement officials, who all too often will help trafficked girls, but arrest trafficked women who are eighteen or over. The FBI is primarily interested only in enslaved children:
http://www.ecpat.net/EI/resource_newsclippings.asp?id=693
Almost every feminist I know supports the decriminalization of selling sex. But legislation that moves in that direction gets opposed by people like you, for whom there is never ever enough proof of trafficking to justify actually helping trafficked people.
People who actually want to inform themselves can learn more about the situation in San Diego here, for starters:
http://www.captivedaughters.org/sandiego-english.htm
Ann Bartow — January 2, 2009
Here a some general resources about sex trafficking. I'm only going to list two so this makes it through moderation, but there are lot more available to anyone who cares about the issue.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=912250
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=984927
Ann Bartow — January 2, 2009
Moderation strikes again. People interested in learning about trafficking should read this paper:
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=984927
Ann Bartow — January 2, 2009
A link I keep trying to get through moderation:
http://www.captivedaughters.org/sandiego-english.htm
maxine doogan — January 2, 2009
writings by poverty pimp non profits who are merely an extension of the prison industrial complex will never be considered creditable nor will any of the statements made by their thug henchmen, the law enforcement officers. As well as all convictions shall remain suspect because of the arbitrary enforcement of the prostitution and immigration laws because of the corruption they enable.
Susan — January 2, 2009
Ann Bartow,
Decriminalization of sex work as defined by sex worker activists is the total decriminalization of both sex workers and their clients. The so-called Swedish model is not the decriminalization of sex work; this model is nothing but a way for society to punish prostitutes through their clients instead of punishing them directly. I label this as INDIRECT PUNISHMENT, because it clearly does not effect the clients unless they admit to soliciting sex workers.
However, decriminalization of sex work does NOT include those adults who have sex with minors. This is covered under the statutory rape and child molestation laws. You cannot have sex with a minor whether you pay for it or not.
In defense of Laura Augustin (again), she is not suggesting that we look the other way in regards to trafficking. She is questioning the so-called "right" of Ana Garcia to go and film a group of people in a field and make bald assumptions about who they are, how old or young they are, and what activity they are engaged in, and whether it's legal or not. I would call this Peeping Tomism, rather than investigative reporting. We don't even know if any of the persons being filmed were having sex or not, because we are not shown this. If this had been a group of Caucasian US Citizens rather than a group of (allegedly) illegal Mexicans, Ana Garcia would not have dared to film this and put it on television and make the assumptions that she did.
Ms. Bartow, there is an unpleasant truth that many of those who scream about sex trafficking don't want to face: That 95% of those who engage in prostitution throughout the entire world do so because of poverty or similar want of money. They don't need to have a gun pointed at them or be tortured or threatened. The need for money is enough to make them do it. When you understand and recognize this very simple and undeniable truth, your ability to fight sex trafficking will become that much more effective.
And I would like to point out that
Susan — January 2, 2009
I repeat:
The unpleasant truth that many of those who scream about sex trafficking don’t want to face is this: That 95% of those who engage in prostitution throughout the entire world do so because of poverty or similar want of money. They don’t need to have a gun pointed at them or be tortured or threatened. The need for money is enough to make them do it. When you understand and recognize this very simple and undeniable truth, your ability to fight sex trafficking will become that much more effective.
I can't emphasize this enough.
Ann Bartow — January 2, 2009
Susan, if news reporters have no right to report on sex trafficking, I think that's pretty much a demand that they look away. And to assume that "95%" of women who are servicing men sexually are doing so "voluntarily" is to deny that sex trafficking exists, which is exactly how the trafficking pimps want it, not to mention the people they pay off to look the other way.
I'm not afraid of the facts. Most prostitutes don't "do it for the money." Often they aren't even allowed to keep the money. They are slaves.
Sweden has very little sex trafficking because it is not profitable. Germany, where prostitution is legal, sees a lot of sex trafficking. There aren't nearly enough "voluntary" prostitutes to meet the needs of the pimps and johns in Germany, and trafficked women are far more profitable to pimps. And more easily controlled. And disposable.
If there were canyons in which middle class white girls were being raped for the profit of men, I think it is even more likely that this would make the news, not less as you posit. It's racism that leads people like you to dismiss the suffering of poor women and girls of color by framing it as something they voluntarily submit to, so that everyone can feel okay about ignoring them.
Susan — January 2, 2009
And furthermore, Ms. Bartow, we don't appreciate your use of the word "ilk" to describe anymore here. I have no doubt that the organizations that you list here are trying to do their best with what they've got, and I'm sure they are genuinely helping those in need, but they do not have, and will never have the means to do much because, as I've said in the two posts right above this one: Most prostitution is a result of poverty or similar lack of money, and therefore most prostitution will disappear when the poverty or lack of money disappears.
That's an unpleasant truth many don't want to face, because it would mean systemic rather than merely cosmetic change.
Lisa Wade, PhD — January 2, 2009
Sorry about the moderation trouble. All links are approved.
Susan — January 2, 2009
Ms. Bartow quotes:
"And to assume that “95%” of women who are servicing men sexually are doing so “voluntarily” is to deny that sex trafficking exists">>
I did NOT say that 95% of the women engaged in prostitution are doing so "voluntarily". I said that 95% of women engaged in prostitution are doing so because of poverty or similar lack of money. Whether they WANT to engage in sex work is beside the point. The point is that they have to in order to survive or to better their subsistence level of existence.
It is beyond belief to me that you would go so far as to deny that poverty even exists. Because if that's the case, then your views are not acceptable within feminism.
Susan — January 2, 2009
Ms. Bartow quotes:
"It’s racism that leads people like you to dismiss the suffering of poor women and girls of color by framing it as something they voluntarily submit to, so that everyone can feel okay about ignoring them."
Sex worker activists do not ignore the needs of underprivileged sex workers. We are in favor of decriminalization, and we actually work towards that goal. We do not patronize these sex workers and treat them as if they need to be "saved" by white women.
maxine doogan — January 2, 2009
Where's the documentation for this statement?
" Most prostitutes don’t “do it for the money.” Often they aren’t even allowed to keep the money."
No matter the industry or work, everybody has to have the right to negotiate for labor and work conditions at any given moment.
maxine doogan — January 2, 2009
Also, FYI, Sex worker rights activists advocate for the complete decriminalization of prostitution as well as migration for work because we are the underprivileged by virtue of the fact that we don't have the right to negotiate for our labor and work conditions. Our speech is criminalized especially when it comes to reporting crimes against us. We also don't have equal protection under the law, just like under aged workers, just like those who are victims of sexual assault, (not matter what age), just like migrant workers and that includes those workers with documentation as well as those without. Now that's a fact.
Ann Bartow — January 2, 2009
Susan wrote: "It is beyond belief to me that you would go so far as to deny that poverty even exists."
I did no such thing. At this point my conversation with you is over.
Maxine - where is your documentation for anything you have asserted anywhere in this comments thread? Like I said before, there will never be enough proof for you. You just ask for proof to be an obstructionist.
Even in places where prostitution is legal, there is illegal prostitution, because pimps are greedy and violent and don't want to comply with regulations meant to keep prostitutes safe. Do some research about what is going in Amsterdam, Germany and even Nevada if you doubt this.
maxine doogan — January 2, 2009
Ann, I've worked in the business for 20 years, I am the authority. I've migrated for work several time just like those people in that video. I've worked under those conditions, just like those people in that video. And I made a movie called legalization sucks, where actual legal workers get to have say about their work conditions. Having our own voices in this matter demonstrates that we already know that legalization sucks and that we know that legalization is not about making workers safe, its about pretending to look that way so members of the public, like you can ignore the fact that we have our own agency. Legalization only empowers the owners and the voters to exploit workers as legalization doesn't make workers safe in anyway. Which is part of Laura's points about the people in this video not having any agency of any kind and that's the point of exploitation by that media and the police.
I sounds like our common ground is around the police's behavior. And my first hand experience with the law enforcement is that, as long as they have the mandate to be duplicitous when it comes to both the criminalization of workers and 'bringing safety', neither will occur.
maxine doogan — January 2, 2009
And I'm not asking for proof to be an obstructionist as you say, I'm asking because your statements about the sex industry and forced labor in the sex industry, like the medias, are not first hand experiences and additionally, they don't match my experience nor the experience of the thousands of workers I've worked with and met over the years. Your limited perspective is part of the problem that keeps the cycle of exploitation of workers, sex industry workers, women and the underaged by not allowing for the possibility of agency in any form.
Only rights can correct the wrongs.
Susan — January 2, 2009
"At this point my conversation with you is over."
Well, Ms. Bartow, I never wanted a conversation with you. You are the one who barged in here like a bull in a china shop and started disrespecting Laura Augustin, Maxine Doogan, and myself. You came in here and decided to converse with us, and now you are deciding when the conversation ends. You don't get to do that.
When I state that the majority of women who take up prostitution do so for economic reasons, I am absolutely in no way, shape, or form trivializing them or denying their circumstances. Poverty is a disease that needs to be eliminated. And, also, I do not deny that there are those who are trafficked, coerced, and tricked into their circumstances. Nobody here does.
But in your case, it's much easier for you to believe that every woman in prostitution has either a literal or proverbial gun to her head, because then you believe that you can pass a few laws that will make it all better and it will all go away. But as you so eloquently put it yourself, law enforcement (generally) do not care about trafficked women. And neither do politicians, for the most part. You know this, so you come here and you take out your frustrations on Laura Augustin, as if she is responsible for the trafficked women of the world.
I'm going to say it one more time: Total and complete decriminalization, of both sex workers and their clients, is the only realistic way of combating human sex trafficking (short of eliminating poverty, although that would help, too). The Swedish model of criminalizing the customers of prostitutes cannot do this because in order to combat trafficking, you need the help and compliance of the johns, and you can't get it if the johns are criminalized.
Decriminalization in and of itself does not cure the problem of sex trafficking, but it's the first step in the right direction
Ann Bartow — January 2, 2009
Maxine,
Your experiences are your experiences. But you still have not offered a shred of support for anything you have said. There is a lot of evidence of sex trafficking and its consequences.
Incidentally, I do and have done a lot of pro bono legal work for prostituted women, and I've learned a lot about their lives.
maxine doogan — January 2, 2009
And what specifically are you refuting as not being true in reference to what I've said?
The 'reporter' herself starts off how many sentences with the words; 'maybe' and 'may have' to preference her statements of in reference to the age of the workers? Thereby telling the audience that what she's saying isn't true.
Susan — January 2, 2009
>>"There is a lot of evidence of sex trafficking and its consequences.">>
No shit, Sherlock!
>>"Incidentally, I do and have done a lot of pro bono legal work for prostituted women, and I’ve learned a lot about their lives.">>
You've learned about their lives, but Maxine's life experiences are just as important and valid as the women whom you've helped. I hope that fact sinks in.
My2cents — January 2, 2009
My two cents on several topics.
Media responsible to no one selling stuff to people responsible to no one. What do you expect? If people want a Peeping Tom telling fairy tales, they get a Peeping Tom telling fairy tales. Another fairy tale we love to hear is that we are interested in facts rather than fairy tales. And the media cater for that demand, too.
Prostitution is a big problem among statisticians. You can always find some professor who will prove anything for money. There’s no strength in numbers anymore, whether it’s about trafficking, global warming, passive smoking or chemical weapons in Iraq. Be extremely cautious with statistics, especially if they support whatever strong beliefs you might have.
Any human decision can be described both as voluntary and as forced. A slave is forced to rebel by his compulsory desire to be free (some would call risking his life self-harming behavior that requires psychiatric treatment). Another slave voluntarily chooses the work over the whip. “Voluntary” or “forced” are feelings, not conditions. Whatever you do, you are always slave to outside or inside forces. “Freedom” is just a feeling telling you that the chains you wear aren’t too heavy to bear. And different people prefer different chains.
Human trafficking exists, it’s a horror and it has to be stopped. Numbers aren’t that important, there’s no democracy in hell, suffering doesn’t increase by addition: one victim suffers no less or more than a million. Anyway, a large number is no argument for making the lives of voluntary prostitutes harder, a small number is no argument to focus on voluntary prostitution only. If you only care for majorities, you’ll end up legalizing gang rape.
From what I’ve seen, politicians are mostly interested in getting prostitution out of sight, out of mind, and human trafficking “rises” whenever they feel like getting on prostitutes’ nerves. Whatever law you make, whether sensible or not, cops won’t bother to apply it, unless it’s to get prostitutes out of public view. Or if it somehow suits somebody’s political career. Or if it allows them to harass and humiliate some defenseless woman.
If you grant people rights, they will abuse them. If you deny people rights, they will get abused. If there is a woman in such a weak position as a prostitute, all the predators (cops, traffickers, judges, rapists, journalists, politicians, feminists, pimps, serial killers, religious figures, crazies, jealous wives, sadists, lawyers, lowlifes who need someone to spit on to feel good) gather for a feast. Which is why there’s no way around decriminalization. Which is why they will do anything to prevent decriminalization.
Ann Bartow — January 3, 2009
Maxine says: The ‘reporter’ herself starts off how many sentences with the words; ‘maybe’ and ‘may have’ to preference her statements of in reference to the age of the workers? Thereby telling the audience that what she’s saying isn’t true.
No. Maxine, she isn't telling the audience what she is saying isn't true. Is that your interpretation of what Agustin is saying? That the allegations that these girls are young and trafficked is a complete fabrication?
Susan — January 3, 2009
My2Cents,
Thank you for your excellent response. I especially love this quote:
>>"Prostitution is a big problem among statisticians. You can always find some professor who will prove anything for money. There’s no strength in numbers anymore, whether it’s about trafficking, global warming, passive smoking or chemical weapons in Iraq. Be extremely cautious with statistics, especially if they support whatever strong beliefs you might have.">>
You've pointed out the very unfortunate trend of people who are "paid propagandists", i.e. those who will lie for money, paid for by special interests like governments and corporations. And there is no difference between those "paid people" who lie about prostitution and those who lie about Iraq's supposed WMDs.
But due to the forced underground nature of prostitution (it's illegal and criminalized), it's nearly impossible to get accurate statistics regarding it. So that means that anyone with a law degree or doctorate degree can come along and make up any old thing about sex work that they want to, and just about everyone will give them credibility, even after their research and statistics have been proven wrong. That's because their subject matter is prostitution, and nobody cares if prostitutes are lied about.
At the same time, just like prostitutes, nobody cares if Iraqis are lied about, because most Americans think they're "just a bunch of smelly ragheads" of which it is our privilege and our right to bomb out of existence.
In an earlier post, I said that 95% of prostitutes are in their profession because of poverty and the lack of similar money. But this too is a made up statistic. I don't know for sure how many prostitutes do what they do and for what reason. But it's because the profession is unnecessarily underground. It's a "guesstimate" on my part, but even with many women who are trafficked or tricked into prostitution, poverty or lack of money is the motivation. They were told they would be getting a well-paying job as a nanny or waitress in a developed nation, and instead they ended up prostituted. But even in this circumstance, poverty and lack of opportunity provided the cause.
To me, the most degrading job in the world is that of "housewife". Housewives around the world by and large do not get paid for their work, yet they will would be insulted if you suggested that their work was demeaning or degrading, and so would everyone else. But the fact remains that they don't get paid. But of course a high-end escort is performing degrading work, even though she makes money through the nose. She should have become and unpaid housewife instead because that is "uplifting".
I learnt a new phrase today « Anti-Porn Feminists — January 4, 2009
[...] against women | “Poverty pimp non profits”. I found it in the comments thread of this post, used (derogatorily obviously) to describe any NGO that works with trafficked women and calls [...]
maxine doogan — January 4, 2009
What's been the most debasing experience in this writing is the fact that the Ann, can't even give me agency right here ad now. In her last post, she credits my views to Laura. I do appreciate Laura's perspectives and efforts to enlighten and I do share her position on this topic of how the media doesn't present any evidence of the ages of those they film without their permission, a form of exploitation and then infantizes their subjects as children, again without their permission or proof. Ann's inability to be civil seem to be universal to feminists who won't give women like me and Susan respect. These acts of betrayal locates her and other feminists squarely in bed with the ruling class and reveals their real motives as the oppressors of human, civil and labor rights.
I am just left to wonder how much self deprecation feminists like this one has to engage to be apart of the oppression in order to avoid being the target of the oppressors. To the point of self destruction I suppose, and certainly the feminist have made themselves quiet irrelevant as a result of this practice.
Ann Bartow — January 4, 2009
Maxine, I did not credit your views to Laura. I asked you if your reading of Laura's comments was that the claims by Ana Garcia and a number of other reporters and people in the San Diego community of the sex trafficking of young girls were fabricated. That certainly seems to be what you were saying in several of your comments. I am not clear about whether you agree with Agustin that the sex trafficking has not been proven, or that you believe she does not go far enough in rejecting reports of sex trafficking. When you say that Garcia and the others are lying, here: http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2008/12/31/thinking-critically-about-sex-trafficking/#comment-5582
I have to assume the latter. I don't think that asking for a clarification is debasing you and depriving you of agency.
Ignoring sex trafficking condemns its victims to ongoing misery. News reporters and other investigators may not be perfect, or always have the purest motives, but if they stop their work, sex traffickers get even less scrutiny than they have now. And law enforcement officials get even more license to ignore the suffering of women and girls than they have now.
That you have resorted to personal attacks and the above pity party for yourself simply emphasizes the moral bankruptcy of your position on sex trafficking.
You have dismissed people who factually support Ana Garcia's reporting above as:
"writings by poverty pimp non profits who are merely an extension of the prison industrial complex will never be considered creditable nor will any of the statements made by their thug henchmen, the law enforcement officers. As well as all convictions shall remain suspect because of the arbitrary enforcement of the prostitution and immigration laws because of the corruption they enable."
You did this here:
http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2008/12/31/thinking-critically-about-sex-trafficking/#comment-5632
You dismiss the accounts of every person who has direct experience with sex trafficking of Mexican girls in San Diego as lies. In doing so you dismiss the voices of some of the victims, but their voices and experiences do not count. Only yours do, apparently.
I
Ann Bartow — January 4, 2009
Once again, a long comment with supporting links is stuck in moderation, even though I have pared the number of links now to a bare minimum.
In other new, Nicholas Kristof followed up on his recent column on sex trafficking in Asia here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/04/opinion/04kristof.html
Ann Bartow — January 4, 2009
Maxine has dismiss the accounts of every person who has direct experience with sex trafficking of Mexican girls in San Diego as lies. In doing so she has dismissed the voices of some of the victims, but their voices and experiences do not count. Only hers do, apparently.
I'm going to be in San Diego next week. I'll spend some time researching the sex trafficking situation there.
I've also contacted Nicholas Kristof and asked him to focus on what is happening in the US, particularly in San Diego, as part of his ongoing reporting.
The truth will out, personal attacks by people like Maxine notwithstanding.
maxine doogan — January 5, 2009
Great, I'll expect to hear back from you Ann, with your report with actual hard copy documentation. In the mean time, we'll be working to gain our agency, our right to negotiate for our labor and work conditions not only for ourselves but for everyone else's too,
Charlie — January 5, 2009
Disgusting! There is a serious problem with women and girls being forced into sexual slavery, and you spend your energy trying to cover up the realities slowly being revealed by these and other reporters? And making a comparison to migrant farming? Being forced to pick vegetables or choosing to do so versus being forcibly raped or consenting to being raped out of sheer desperation, I know which I would prefer. Prostitution is not inevitable, criminalise the punter, end demand.
maxine doogan — January 5, 2009
Charlie, you don't permission to take any actions that would negatively impact the work conditions of sex industry workers.
Anonymous — January 5, 2009
Those women were not there because of the way prostitution is policed, they were there because there was a demand for that type of prostitution. (As the post says, those men can’t afford prostitutes any other way, so the market is there.)
Even if prostitution was deregulated completely in the way the sex work unions are calling for, those women would still be there; maybe not those exact same women, since some of them, if they weren’t under-age, may have been able to get visas to work legally in the 'above ground' sector of prostitution, but there would still be women out there in those fields. As long as there is demand (and there will never be enough willing prostitutes to meet demand), there will be supply.
Why would the police or anyone else bother to go out there to check on their welfare (if they could find them), since under a deregulated system, nothing about it would be illegal, except the coercion, the violence, the child-rapes, but why would the police bother to check except maybe to round up illegal immigrants? How can mobile brothels shaped out of bamboo and trash-bags ever be safe, even if they were legal, how could it ever fulfil the most basic health and safety guidelines (not that there's any 'safe' way to submit to unwanted sex)?
If legalisation doesn’t work to make prostitution safer in anyway (which assertion I agree with, it's mostly back to the old 'contagious diseases act' type laws), how is a completely deregulated system going to work? If your pimp doesn't let you have contact with the outside world, nobody but the johns know you're there, and the police don't have to bother, how is it safer? Where's the agency in that situation?
The outreach work to encourage condom use by johns is nice (as in: he raped me, but he used a condom, which was nice of him), but condoms can break, and condoms don't protect against all STIs, and there will still be financial incentives to go without - and how dare anyone challenge the 'agency' of a prostitute to chose to forego condoms in order to pay off her debts quicker.
In every country where prostitution has been decriminalised/legalised in some way, the illegal sector has been massively bigger than the legal sector, and has had the legal sector to hide behind. The Netherlands has now admitted that they did not manage to achieve what they set out to do: make prostitutes safer and separate prostitution from organised crime.
Anti-P London — January 5, 2009
apologies, didn't mean to post the last comment anonymously
maxine doogan — January 5, 2009
It's just so not credible that the haters of prostitution think they can define for us workers our industry.
Anti-P London — January 5, 2009
I don't hate prostitutes, I hate exploitation. I see prostitution as a particularly vicious form of exploitation, which causes harm even in its most 'benign' forms.
I know name-calling is easier, but perhaps you could respond to some of the concerns I have raised?
Susan — January 5, 2009
Charlie says:
"Prostitution is not inevitable, criminalise the punter, end demand."
The soliciting of sex for pay is already illegal in the United States and in most countries. That has not ended the demand for such sex.
Susan — January 5, 2009
Anti-P says:
"The Netherlands has now admitted that they did not manage to achieve what they set out to do: make prostitutes safer and separate prostitution from organised crime."
That's because the Netherlands makes special rules that prostitutes have to follow that other businesses don't have to. They can only function in the niche that the government says they can. So in essence prostitution is still criminalized and stigmatized in this system. What they and everyone should be following is the New Zealand model, which is total and complete decriminalization (of both buyers and sellers), with prostitutes subject only to the same laws that any other business is subject to.
While it is still possible for harm to come to a sex worker in New Zealand (there is no such thing as complete safety, in sex work or any other type of work), you don't have gangs of organized crime rampant in its cities trafficking out women (a few instances of this does not count, it has to be rampant. Remember no system is full-proof).
Susan — January 5, 2009
And please remember that in my last quote when I said "a few instances do not count", I did not say it in the context of "those women don't count". I meant it in the context that a few instances are not enough to discredit New Zealand's system. It has to be more than that.
Anti-P London — January 6, 2009
Ok then, putting aside the question of how much 'choice' the women really had about being there, and whether or not they were under-age (since we can’t prove anything definitively, and it will only have us arguing in circles), how would having a deregulated system of prostitution actually help those specific women?
What exactly is going to change for them? Under a deregulated system, having unprotected sex with how ever many men a day in a mobile brothel out in the middle of nowhere would be a legal set-up. Handing over most or all of your earnings to the 'smuggler/middle-man' (trafficker/pimp) to pay off your debts would be a legal arrangement. Is a representative of a sex work union going to find these mobile brothels (when they don’t want to be found), unionise those workers (when the men running the brothels don’t want them to be unionised) and actually change those 'working' conditions?
Could you explain how it would work please (specifically in the context of those mobile brothels)?
maxine doogan — January 6, 2009
Its' just so not creditable that the haters of prostitution are now demanding consensual sex industry workers', a group who suffer under the burden of violence the criminalization, are not going to have our agenda dictated to us which consists of running after mobile brothels? Who are the slave owners again?
Anti-P London — January 6, 2009
Maxine, I'm afraid I found your latest comment intelligible.
I will state again, I do not hate prostitutes, I hate exploitation.
And I will ask again, can you please explain to me exactly how a deregulated system will benefit the women 'working' in those mobile brothels?
maxine doogan — January 6, 2009
your title; 'anti prostitution' means that you are a hater of prostitutes and our industry no?
And again, it is not my responsibility to hop to your demands of me, a criminalized vulnerable worker to fix your version of the world's problems while your hating on me and barring my right to work.
Susan — January 6, 2009
Anti-P, this is a statement from a sex worker activist Jill Brennemen, answering one of your questions:
>>how would having a deregulated system of prostitution actually help those specific (trafficked) women?>>
I have a question for those with this question. How many under age, trafficked or slave workers do we run into in legal and non marginalized occupations? If we are working in a call center, on a plane, in a retail job, for instance and we suspect that our co worker is forced, underage, an illegally trafficked slave, what can we do? Umm, report it to the police, report it to deparmtent of labor, to human resources and there is reasonable expectation that the actual crimes will be addressed. Meaning the coercion, minor, trafficking etc. The problem isn’t solved by banning an occupation because abuses happen in it. We don’t close a call center because someone may be trafficked into it. We don’t take away the rights of the workers or criminalize the customers of an airline because someone may coerce a flight attendant or passenger to smuggle drugs……. Yet where there is sex work, the immediate answer of so many is to live in this absurd world believing we can make it all go away through blanket legislation.
If sex work was not illegal, if sex workers had the same rights as others, if it weren’t marginalized, if all weren’t portrayed as either criminals or trafficking victims we could actually focus on the real world.
Again, as a former trafficking victim,,,, I was afraid of the police. Afraid of society not believing, not understanding, afraid of the justice system. And none of those fears were ever allayed by reality. Reality was I had every reason to be afraid of them. I woudn’t and didn’t report criminal actions against me or others because the police, the justice system and society don’t see prostitutes as someone to help.
Why is it so many academics and feminists can’t see the obvious? Predators play on isolation. The actual traffickers, the actual rapists, know that sex work is illegal and that as such anyone that is a prostitute for a variety of reasons that are enforced by criminalization are easy targets. When I as a trafficking victim saw myself as a criminal, which was certainly enforced and reenforced by the trafficker/pimp, I wasn’t going to go to the police for help. One of the first things one is taught by a predator is the many reasons why you can’t get help. And the predator knows how sex workers are oppressed by laws, by society, by discrimination, marginalization, by poverty,,,,,,,,,,, He knows that just as damn well as some college educated professor that happened to study oppression in her undergrad women’s studies class. There is also this assumption by many who study and advocate anti ideology that they by virtue of their studies and feminism are the only ones who understand oppression.
Coercion, trafficking, underage prostitution,,,,,,,,,those are already illegal yet they are still happening. Casting the wide net of criminalizing consenting adults to save those that are neither, that thought process has been tried for a long time and hasn’t worked. Fighting those evils by expending hordes of resources and energy opposing sex worker rights initiatives for consenting adult sex work sure as hell hasn’t and isn’t going to work in saving the actual victims or bringing the actual criminals to justice.
Anti-P London — January 7, 2009
Susan, a mobile brothel out in the countryside and known only to the pimps and johns is, by definition, isolated. Women smuggled into a foreign country (regardless of whether they thought they were getting a job as a waitress, or a high-class escort, or had, out of desperation, accepted that they would have to service ten men a day and hand over all the money for how ever long) are by definition vulnerable. Under a deregulated system you are relying on the johns to police the system, and the johns don’t give a shit. You are also relying on the pimps to be honest, they can tell the women they control anything to scare them and keep them under control.
I have never seen a convincing account of how decriminalisation would do anything other than create a two-tier system, the 'legitimate' businesses out in the open, and the extensive criminal network carrying on exactly as before.
The way prostitution is policed needs a radical overhaul so that the victims of trafficking and prostitution are not treated as criminals.
Anti-P London — January 7, 2009
Maxine, I think, from your two garbled comments, that you are accusing me of being a 'slave-driver' for suggesting that a sex work union might actually try to unionise sex workers. If helping vulnerable women organise is not part of your ‘agenda’ what is?
I looked at the ESPU website, they described their members in this way:
"An Erotic Service Provider is anyone who is compensated for his or her erotic services or compensated for their support of someone else’s erotic service"
So the 'support' must surely include pimps (sorry, 'managers'), brothel keepers, people running escort agencies? There's a lot of money in the industry (although little of it gets to stay with the prostitutes), are you telling me the ESPU has no resources to actually help prostitutes organises? Isn't unionisation supposed to be what keeps prostitutes safe? Or is it that servicing men out in bamboo and bin-bag brothels simply isn't 'erotic' enough for those women to be eligible?
Anti-P London — January 7, 2009
Maxine, what do you mean you're a "criminalized vulnerable worker"? You're a convicted pimp!
http://www.sfexaminer.com/opinion/columns/ken_garcia/Keep_trafficking_out_of_city.html
Susan — January 7, 2009
>>Susan, a mobile brothel out in the countryside and known only to the pimps and johns is, by definition, isolated.>>
A traveling circus known only to the the owners of the circus and those who pay to see the performance is, by definiton, isolated.
>>Women smuggled into a foreign country (regardless of whether they thought they were getting a job as a waitress, or a high-class escort, or had, out of desperation, accepted that they would have to service ten men a day and hand over all the money for how ever long) are by definition vulnerable.>>
If women (as well as men and children) are smuggled anywhere, it's because of war, poverty, or oppression. Smuggling isn't going to stop unless those problems are dealt with.
>>Under a deregulated system you are relying on the johns to police the system, and the johns don’t give a shit.>>
"Deregulated" and "decriminalized" are two different things. The term "deregulated", as you are using it, is a euphemism.
>>You are also relying on the pimps to be honest, they can tell the women they control anything to scare them and keep them under control.>>
It's a lot more difficult to scare or control a sex worker if he or she knows that the work they are doing is allowed by law. I think Jill Brenneman made that clear. How many times must this be said?
>>I have never seen a convincing account of how decriminalisation would do anything other than create a two-tier system, the ‘legitimate’ businesses out in the open, and the extensive criminal network carrying on exactly as before.>>
Why bother operating an underground business when you can do it above ground and not have to constantly look over your shoulder worrying about getting caught? In a decriminalized system, an "underground" sex work business is one that refuses to pay it's taxes, or does not obey zoning laws, or does not obey the other laws and regulations that businesses in that particular country have to follow. And obviously someone who is coercing another into sex work is operating an underground business, but it's also quite likely that a trafficker is not paying his taxes or not following other laws. You can catch a trafficker by noticing these other, trivial violations.
But really, Anti-P, there is no use arguing with you, because the basis of your argument is that every sex worker is coerced, every client is a rapist, and every manager is a slave-owner. Even when there are so many examples to the contrary if you just take the time to look for them.
Anti-P London — January 10, 2009
Susan,
“A traveling circus known only to the the owners of the circus and those who pay to see the performance is, by definiton, isolated.”
This comment is plain daft, that isn’t the way travelling circuses operate in the real world. It’s not the way hospitals or call-centres or airports operate in the real world either. It is, however, the way mobile brothels operate, for real, in the real world.
This discussion did not start over whether or not those women were isolated or vulnerable in those mobile brothels, because patently they are. This discussion started about the amount of ‘choice’ and ‘agency’ those women have exercised in being there.
The ‘agency’ argument says that the most harm those women can suffer is for us to assume that they didn’t fully exercise a ‘free choice’ by being there; by suggesting that those conditions of ‘work’ may be abusive, we, apparently, are doing them more harm than the johns and pimps ever could.
The ‘agency’ argument, taken to its logical conclusions, means that any amount of physical or psychological harm can be suffered by those women, but they still have ‘agency’ and made a ‘free choice’ being there. Under the ‘agency’ argument, even if they WERE trafficked, even if they are being held in debt bondage and have no ability to negotiate for safe sex, or to refuse johns, or were penetrated until their vaginas bled, they still have ‘agency’, because it hasn’t killed them. If they survive it, they have ‘agency’.
The ‘agency’ argument, taken to its logical conclusion, means children pimped out by their families have ‘agency’ since it doesn’t kill them and it means their family can eat. A starving woman prostituting herself for scraps of food has ‘agency’ because it means she doesn’t starve, and we are not allowed to even recognise it as abuse or do anything about it because the abuse is what allows them to survive.
“If women (as well as men and children) are smuggled anywhere, it’s because of war, poverty, or oppression. Smuggling isn’t going to stop unless those problems are dealt with.”
Yes, there are push factors, and poverty is the main one, but there are also pull factors, nobody is trafficked anywhere for any reason if there is no demand for them there. The other thing we are not allowed to see or try to do anything about is the demand side of prostitution.
““Deregulated” and “decriminalized” are two different things. The term “deregulated”, as you are using it, is a euphemism.”
Decriminalisation means the removal of punitive measures across all parts of the sex industry: buying, selling, facilitating or controlling commercial sex acts. That sounds like deregulation to me.
If it is a euphemism, then describing submitting to unwanted sex in order to survive as ‘agency’, is also a euphemism.
“It’s a lot more difficult to scare or control a sex worker if he or she knows that the work they are doing is allowed by law. I think Jill Brenneman made that clear. How many times must this be said?”
It would also be harder to scare or control them if they knew that what was being done to them was a crime against them, and that the police would give a damn and treat it seriously.
“Why bother operating an underground business when you can do it above ground and not have to constantly look over your shoulder worrying about getting caught? In a decriminalized system, an “underground” sex work business is one that refuses to pay it’s taxes, or does not obey zoning laws, or does not obey the other laws and regulations that businesses in that particular country have to follow. And obviously someone who is coercing another into sex work is operating an underground business, but it’s also quite likely that a trafficker is not paying his taxes or not following other laws. You can catch a trafficker by noticing these other, trivial violations.”
Prostitution is a massive business making a huge amount of money, and the infrastructure for it is already there. If all a pimp has to do to go ‘legitimate’ is start paying taxes then that’s what they’ll do. There are cases from Australia of women being trafficked into legal brothels, the tax-paying status is just a way to put up a good front. If the main concern of law enforcement is collecting taxes, then who’s going to look too closely at what’s actually going on?
Strip clubs have been legal for a long time, but they are still entwined with organised crime and the women who work there are still, on the whole, treated like dirt, have to put up with all kinds of violence, make very little money, and are under pressure to engage in prostitution. Being above ground and taxed hasn’t stopped it being a shitty job (although, for the sake of ‘agency’ we are not allowed to see that), and the men controlling the industry do their best to keep things that way because it maximises profits for them.
“But really, Anti-P, there is no use arguing with you, because the basis of your argument is that every sex worker is coerced, every client is a rapist, and every manager is a slave-owner. Even when there are so many examples to the contrary if you just take the time to look for them.”
I accept that there are a number of men and women in prostitution who choose to be there, but globally they are a tiny minority. Really, the experiences of a high-class escort who can charge hundreds of dollars an hour and choose her clients has practically nothing to do with those women in that mobile brothel.
If you refuse to see any abuse in prostitution, then you won’t see any abuse; if you insist that johns are just ‘clients’ then you won’t see any rapists.
Doesn’t it concern you at all that the organisations that claim to speak on behalf of prostituted women are so much in bed with the pimps and the traffickers and the brothel keepers? COYOTE in the US has, by it’s own admission, only 3% former or current prostituted women, the IUSW in the UK is completely open about accepting pimps, brothel keepers and pornographers as members.
Maxine Doogan, who fronts the ESPU and is a convicted pimp, acted in this thread like it was an affront to her for me to ask what her union actually plans to do to organise workers - she didn’t even bother making shit up about it!
Her inability to string a sentence together in English would be amusing if it weren’t for the fact that she has just participated in a very sophisticated campaign in support of Proposition K, a campaign which included “trying to get a judge to block voter information for the ballot pamphlet that would have let people know what Prop. K will do if passed.”
http://www.sfexaminer.com/opinion/columns/ken_garcia/Keep_trafficking_out_of_city.html
She obviously has some very powerful backers with a lot of resources available to them.
maxine doogan — January 10, 2009
"I accept that there are a number of men and women in prostitution who choose to be there, but globally they are a tiny minority."
Where's the documentation for this statement? How may prostitutes are working and how many are 'choosing' what?
maxine doogan — January 10, 2009
It's also interesting the anti p london shuts down the comments on her own blog so she can continue here?
Where she states: "I want all exit programs to be as accessible, non-judgmental and non-coercive as possible.".
Well when you give as much lip service to our right to work, the 'tiny minority', as you do to the cause of those you perceive as forced, then you might be some what creditable.
Anti-P London — January 11, 2009
Hello again Maxine, I'd just love to hear about what your union is doing now to help women like those out in those mobile brothels to organise as workers to bargain for better pay and conditions.
Sociological Images » What Does The Sex Industry Look Like? — May 10, 2009
[...] Laura’s other contributions to Sociological Images: thinking critically about sex trafficking and questioning the benefits of “rescuing” prostitutes. tags: Austria, [...]
Peter — June 20, 2009
There are a growing number of legitamate NGO's made up of extremely well-trained, capable veterans who want to "do good for money" - soldiers for hire. Does anyone know if an effort has been made to approach a law abiding group like this and work out a "Pay for Performance" arrangement - financially motivating the rooting out and destruction of trafficking rings. FYI - they have done great things in Darfur when others don't get on the groud and literally - legally defesively combat.
I'm a business person and have seen that it takes a sound financial model, commitment by a dedicated team that can work together, and being on the side of justice to truly overcome strong odds. I believe there may be some groups who know how to work within the law yet apply their skills very effectively in this area.
I'm not looking to debate - I want to know if any of you have seen a direct effort of this style yet and; if so, what the outcome has been?
mellissa — July 23, 2010
Maxine is the only one with any real insight or points to make on this topic. The ridiculous assumptions of those ganging up on her are loud and obvious cries of fear in the face of a real activist for change. The half assed arguments that are thrown together and badly regurgitated at her are not her mess to clean up.
anti P, thanks for the novel, we really cant stand reading your arrogant banter. (Ill bet all you want in life is to be seen as "intelligent")
Susan, pull yourself out of your little ignorant fox media box and learn a thing or two about sex workers and the sex industry before ranting on and on about a topic that has everything to do with them (sex workers) and nothing to do with you!
Maxine, Your intellect and expertise are well aimed and sharp. Frankly, you could spend all day trying to educate these poor saps. Lets not waist any more of your valuable time defending your logical points against suburban losers and their troll like aspirations to one day prove a valid point. Your expertise is being washed over ingrates here. Thank you for providing me with a good laugh, at anti p and susans expense of course.
Helpful Tool For Those Interested in Sex and Sexuality from a Sociological Perspective « Welcome to the Doctor's Office — January 12, 2012
[...] Thinking Critically about Sex Trafficking [...]
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