Originally posted at Shameless.
Marilyn Monroe is often held up as the antidote to the idea that only thin can be beautiful. “Marilyn was a size 10/12/14,” goes a common refrain (though sizing basically means nothing these days, so what does that even prove?). There have been a couple Marilyn Monroe memes floating around Facebook in the past couple months, and both are troubling. The focus is on Marilyn’s curves, and how her swimsuit clad body is different from what movie stars look like today (oh, the tyranny of the “Best Beach Bodies!” issue). What’s supposed to be an empowering message to women – you don’t have to be a Victoria’s Secret model to be beautiful – is completely undermined by two much older memes: divide and conquer and the male gaze.
In the first photo, Marilyn is compared to another woman in a bikini, who is much thinner. The text reads: “This [pointing to Monroe] is more attractive than this [pointing to the other woman].” While I can totally get behind the title “fuck society,” and add “and its stupid expectations” for good measure, there’s nothing anti-establishment about what’s being done here. This is a common tactic, in which women are pitted against each other, so that we lose sight of the real problem: namely, society. If women are fighting amongst ourselves about who is more “beautiful,” if we compare ourselves to other women endlessly, we don’t have time to notice that we’re trapped in a hamster-wheel of low self-esteem. Society hopes that you’ll buy things, to try and make yourself feel better. In the meantime, it’s hoped that we as women won’t critically examine what beauty is, what’s being sold to us, and most importantly, who profits from all this. Fuck Society, sure, because society tells you that if you’re not extremely thin, you’re worthless. However, extremely thin women? They’re still people. Further, bodies are just bodies. They have no intrinsic worth, no moral value, other than what we assign them. The thought behind this comparison photo is to turn the dominant paradigm on its head, but what it really does is reinforce that for one woman to be good, another must be bad. And that kind of thinking isn’t going to get us anywhere.
The second is the same photo of Marilyn, this time alone in the Motivational Poster style. The text reads: “PROOF: That you can be adored by thousands of men, even when your thighs touch.” From the start this would seem like a better message. No comparison photo, no pitting women against each other. For some reason, though, this photo troubles and angers me more than the first one does. Because here’s the thing: you are worth more than what men think of you. Marilyn Monroe was, to put it mildly, very sad, very often. She was a sex symbol, and thus, stopped existing as human being, a regular girl. Almost everything that fucked up Marilyn’s later life had to do with being “adored” by men. Men used her, or deified her (and that’s a hard come-down for those dudes when they found a human being in their bed the morning after). Political brothers purportedly passed her around like a toy. Conventional wisdom, political conspiracy aside, has it that Monroe killed herself. Being “adored by thousands of men” didn’t stop her demons from consuming her. It angers me to no end that, again, in the name of self-esteem we’re going to make a poster girl (literally) out of a woman who was notoriously down on herself.
I want very much for us to stop thinking that there is only one body type that is acceptable. I would prefer the focus be on health, rather than appearance. The Monroe Meme seems about the furthest thing from healthy. This is a woman who abused alcohol and sleeping pills later in her life, this is a woman who (probably) died due to depression. But, hey, as long as someone thinks she looks good, I guess that’s what matters.
Heather Cromarty has written for The Walrus Blog, and writes about books and bookish miscellany at In The Midst of Life, We Are in Debt, Etc. Follow her on Twitter: @la_panique.
Comments 317
Tom Megginson — January 25, 2012
There's just no winning on this issue, because it's all about judging people by their looks alone. Whether your judgement is positive or negative, as you have pointed out, it still does a disservice to the whole person.
Ross Bennett — January 25, 2012
"Good heavens, man. How on earth should I know whether she's beautiful? I only know what she looks like."
Anonymous — January 25, 2012
"She" is not a "this".
Nobody has the right to claim that something is or is not "attractive", or to make someone feel othered for finding something "attractive".
Anonymous — January 25, 2012
This is an outstanding post. Thank you
Susanita7166 — January 25, 2012
Without stating the obvious, in response to the last paragrah, she might have also been murdered, and it wasn't her depression that ultimately killed her. While, I do believe she was depressed and taking drugs, her autopsy only shows "apparent suicide", so it doesn't exclude the fact that she was murdered. Just wanted to point that out.
Susanita7166 — January 25, 2012
I liked the rest of the article though:)
C. D. Leavitt — January 25, 2012
Excellent post. Those "real women have curves" memes are always distressing to me, because my body type doesn't lend itself towards those "curves." Is my womanhood somehow less, simply because of my genes? Am I failing to perform gender properly because the ratio between my breasts, hips and waist isn't desirable?
These things have nothing to do with who I am as a person. My identity as a woman is not defined by how desirable someone finds my body, nor is it in any way enhanced by insulting another woman's body.
Our humanity should matter more than our fuckability.
Anonymous — January 25, 2012
This is a great post. Thank you.
Unfortunately, men do get judged by looks; studies show tall men get hired & promoted over short men, and there is some looks-ism in the gay community, I understand. Anyway, we do seem to want our celebrities to be phenomenally beautiful/handsome by society's narrow standards, and we like to see them suffer: perhaps they are our shamans and scapegoats.
Katya — January 25, 2012
Great post. Your worth as a person is not dependent on whether men want to have sex with you. It's why it's not really helpful to have a man explain that it's okay not to look like Kate Moss because he likes women with curves. The problem is that women are pressured to conform to an ideal in order to be attractive to men, when the problem is that the ideal is not natural or attainable for most women. It's always a losing game.
"Real women" come in all shapes and sizes--the message should be to accept yourself the way you are--thin, curvy, tall, short, busty, flat-chested--and not damage your confidence comparing yourself to others or risk your health trying to be something you're not.
Crystal — January 25, 2012
The facebook meme I like it the one with five women of varying sizes in their white bra and panties, that says "All bodies are good bodies" It has a woman covered in tattoos, a couple differing bigger sized women, a slight tall thin woman and one who appears very muscular. That's a meme I can get behind.
lisa — January 25, 2012
Thank you for this, these memes have angered me every since they started showing up.
Mama Vintage — January 25, 2012
Two thumbs up
Anonymous — January 25, 2012
While the expectations placed on men are also incredibly screwed up, they're still DIFFERENT expectations that have different consequences for men. So if we're looking at this Marilyn meme, we're talking about women, not men. Men deserve another post on this, absolutely, but it's not directly related here.
infamousT — January 25, 2012
Some sense. At last... thank you - I'd just about given up on the internet for the day.
Sarah — January 25, 2012
I would only differentiate a little more: Marilyn Monroe is not being pitted against a random skinny woman, but Nicole Kidman (it seems). I do not see the image so much as "curves" vs "bones" (or even woman vs woman), but instead as "past celebrity beauty" vs "current celebrity beauty." In this sense, "Fuck Society" is a reaction, though vague, to the current celebrity beauty exemplified in the image, and is appropriate.
guest — January 25, 2012
I was going to be angry about the post but then I read it. And now I completely agree.
A. Man
Guest — January 25, 2012
I know everyone says this BUT beauty is in the eyes of the beholder
It is a great article to make anyone with low self esteem realize that being skinny isn't what makes people attractive
Mieko Gavia — January 25, 2012
Not to mention that all these memes are pitting white (presumably) hetero/cis/physically able-bodied women against each other. Us minorities are left out of the mix entirely, probably because we've never been considered attractive by society-at-large.
Even in a post on sociology and body image, we are left out.
Sprinkles — January 25, 2012
This dichotomy also ends up pitting larger women against smaller ones. Just as fat women shouldn't be getting hate, neither should very skinny ones. Life doesn't become perfect when you're a size 4, and skinny women have their share of body insecurities, too - "real women have curves" insinuates that bony women are not womanly enough. Trust me, when you're built like a teenage boy, you get plenty of people making rude and uninvited comments about your figure, and your femininity gets questioned.
Joe Mama — January 25, 2012
Because the patriarchy is trying to turn you into a chubby drug addict when it isn't trying to turn you into an anorexic skeleton. Right. Got it.
Anonymous — January 25, 2012
I'm totally with you on the second part. And what if you were a lesbian, or asexual, or married? Suddenly the "point" that men find X attractive becomes moot.
My body issues come from my height (I don't like being short), and the
usual response is, "But guys like petite chicks." As if I care about how
many guys wanna use my body as a boner receptacle.
Stephen Ball — January 25, 2012
>>what it really does is reinforce that for one woman to be good, another must be bad
No, what it does is say that most men don't find anorexia attractive. And that's valuable, and showing the picture of a bony frame is worth doing, because if you can convert that image in people's heads to one they DON'T want you'll combat the normal pressures and save some lives.
Everything else is just as you say, especially reducing a woman's worth to her body size or attractiveness to men. Horrible, self-defeating and not anti- the norms at all.
But displaying a healthy weight as preferable to near-starvation is not an attempt to 'divide and conquer' women by men, it's a graphic image which needs to be pushed while so many messages constantly say the opposite.
Cthulhu — January 25, 2012
It's a good piece though I think something needs to be said about the "female gaze" as well. For example, female standards for appearance are probably set quite a bit above male standards for "fuckability." Admittedly this can be argued to be another indirect consequence of the male gaze but the trouble is, mothers and other women are often responsible for indoctrinating their daughters into the whole "appearance is paramount" belief. It's not me or the boys on the playground noting that my first grade daughter is wearing "matching colors" or cares much whether her hair is nicely combed. And I know that when I suggest to my wife that she doesn't need to wear make-up to work, she's not at all worried about the judgments of the males there but rather the females. And my wife was a female studies minor so its not like she isn't well-versed in the issues at stake.
YourName — January 25, 2012
This is a wonderful post. At first it looks like this is empowering women even to me, although I'm thin. I don't like the way other women are treated,
however this comparison is insulting. It really objectificates all women.I don't agree with some of the comments that the ideal for woman should be
hetero. I don't think men care so much. We are objects, we
are there to pleasure men, so lesbianism is either "she hasn't met the right guy"
or "she slpeeps with women for the attention of men" or "she is ugly, old or
both so nobody(men) want her", or "she hates men or she is disappointed".
Women cannot be without men, so if they "play" with women there has to
be a reason and it is not serious, it is just women's thing after all all attractive
women really want men, just because men want them. This is one of
the reasons why "straight" men like lesbian sex.
Sorry for this deviation, but ideal= hetero woman simply isn't truth.
Anonymous — January 25, 2012
Thank you! I look a lot more like the skinny woman than like Marilyn, and I've been really offended by the "Marilyn meme" that's been floating around. I appreciate you taking the time to write about it.
Penelope Spicer — January 25, 2012
Excellent article. Bravo!
Ida Horlix — January 25, 2012
The renaissance of love for the 'curvy' woman is still a thin lady, with curves in the right place. As a girl with un grande beer belly, my curves are in the wrong places. Regarding sexuality, it will always be about tits and ass, everything's still the same. Probs saying much of the same as the commenters below, but it's just the curvy really annoys me, like an extra curve under the chin isn't celebrated, and while I'm on the subject, it's all about the curvy hair, not the curly ringlet frizzy hair, but the 'feminine' just had sex kind of curves. Grumble.
Anonymous — January 25, 2012
thank you! fativists seem to think they can just replace skinny is better with fat is better and that that creates some sort of supportive environment. It doesn't. It causes resentment and it's super hypocritical.
Elisabeth Lindstrom — January 25, 2012
Awesome, well put, thank you!
Justanotherperson — January 25, 2012
Great article! Although I think it may be a little unfair to describe bodies as having no intrinsic worth. Bodies, as natural entities have phenomenal intrinsic value. It's the extrinsic societal values placed upon them that are skewed.
anotheronejustliketheotherone — January 25, 2012
Great article! Although I think it may be a little unfair to describe bodies as having no intrinsic worth. Bodies, as natural entities have phenomenal intrinsic value. It's the extrinsic societal values placed upon them that are skewed.
justanotherperson — January 25, 2012
Great article! Although I think it may be a little unfair to describe bodies as having no intrinsic worth. Bodies, as natural entities have phenomenal intrinsic value. It's the extrinsic societal values placed upon them that are skewed.
justanotherperson — January 25, 2012
Great article! Although I think it may be a little unfair to describe bodies as having no intrinsic worth. Bodies, as natural entities have phenomenal intrinsic value. It's the extrinsic societal values placed upon them that are skewed.
Derae Jarvis — January 25, 2012
Oh so women with figures similar to Marilyn who're sick of being told they're fat and unattractive aren't allowed to take away a positive message from this meme? Intended or not that is one of the effects of the meme and it's not a negative one. I for one find Marilyn far more attractive than the woman in the right-hand side of the photo; she looks healthier, and healthy is far more appealing.
Anonymous — January 25, 2012
I never even thought of that before, but I guess it's just a symptom of how Monroe has ceased to exist as an individual rather than as a symbol
Abusedacademic — January 25, 2012
Speaking as the "enemy" here (i.e., a heterosexual man who likes to look at women--curvy, skinny, whatever), I think this post makes a lot of assumptions about the subtext of these memes. First and foremost is that they are implying that physical beauty is the only thing that matters about women. I see nothing to indicate that. Second, there is the assumption that these judgments on women's looks are entirely driven by men, and are the product of some vast advertising/media conspiracy (by the likes of Don Draper and Roger Sterling, sitting in their conference room drinking scotch and staring at Joan Harris' cleavage) to pit women against each other. In other words, it's all because of men and not women's own INTERNAL insecurities. Women have no role in this; they are the victims, which dovetails nicely with the "victimology" narrative so common in sociology. Then, of course, race is brought in because the women pictured are all white.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. But then, what else would there be to write about in sociology?
Andrew F. Butters — January 25, 2012
Someone recently asked me what I find attractive in a person. My response has always been the same: attitude (full disclosure: in high school I may have said breasts).
How do you put that in a picture? In a two-dimensional print ad, how is that possible? Certainly it's possible, but it's not easy, and likely not as effective, because at the end of the day, sadly, it still comes down to people trying to sell shit.
Speaking of which, these are beautiful ;)
http://andrewsalphabet.com
Guest — January 25, 2012
Marilyn Monroe wasn't just 'adored' by men, but sexually abused by them as a child and young adolescent. This probably had a lot to do with her depression.
Christopher Diaz — January 25, 2012
Speaking as the "enemy" here (i.e., a heterosexual man who likes to look at women--curvy, skinny, whatever), I think this post makes a lot of assumptions about the subtext of these memes. First and foremost is that they are implying that physical beauty is the only thing that matters about women. I see nothing to indicate that. Second, there is the assumption that these judgments on women's looks are entirely driven by men, and are the product of some vast advertising/media conspiracy (by the likes of Don Draper and Roger Sterling, sitting in their conference room drinking scotch and staring at Joan Harris' cleavage) to pit women against each other. In other words, it's all because of men and not women's own INTERNAL insecurities. Women have no role in this; they are the victims, which dovetails nicely with the "victimology" narrative so common in sociology. Then, of course, race is brought in because the women pictured are all white.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. But then, what else would there be to write about in sociology?
Psy_Chick — January 25, 2012
It's also notable that while she's held up as a "hero" of plus-size women, Marilyn Monroe was the equivalent of a modern size 2. She was teeny tiny. She had some curves, but she wasn't plus-size by any standards outside of Lilliput. The picture shown above kind of has a forced perspective thing going on, making her appear a bit larger than she really was. When she died, she was 5'5", 117 lbs. She had a 32" bust, and a 24" waist. Tiny.
drab — January 25, 2012
this...
Guest — January 25, 2012
whose the whale in the white dress?
Persuasia4 — January 25, 2012
Fuck what men think.
Ajpearson2 — January 25, 2012
WE ARE ALL BEAUTIFUL
Matt Mosh — January 25, 2012
This must be your first day on the internet, meme's do not need articles. Also, I bet you are fat.
Anonymous — January 25, 2012
This 13-year old YouTuber addresses this issue straight on.
http://youtu.be/Cc223-FFZrI
Robert Lallier — January 25, 2012
The thing is, Marilyn went looking for what she got perhaps without realizing that she was looking for true value in many of the wrong places. Quite a lot of her life seemed to be a series of poor and tragic choices to be sure, but they were still her choices.
Lola — January 25, 2012
This post brought me tears (well teary eyes, anyway)
Just the other day I had an argument with a man who agreed with the first picture. I couldn't have been angrier. No woman can chose how her body is going to look, those are genetics. A lot of naturally thin women can't even put on weight, and it just saddens me that anyone has the right to blame society for the girls being skinny.
Master Baiter — January 26, 2012
I think there is a significant misunderstanding of what constitutes to a meme and how they catch on.
Brandowj — January 26, 2012
After reading a lot of the same things over and over I decide to post. The problem was never addressed in this blog or the comments below. The ultimate problem is that people need to think for themselves and need to come to understand that no matter what not everyone is going to like you and all that you are! We have these problems with woman and men because people are sheep and and over time we as a whole have been lead to believe many false things and need to stop worrying about what people think about us.
Angharad Wyvern — January 26, 2012
Amen. We should all adore Jo Brand and eat cake. (Not being sarcastic.)
Cornel West and Prophetic Pragmatism, Spring 2012 — January 26, 2012
[...] “The Marilyn Meme” [...]
Top 10 moments de bonheur « Mélodie Nelson — January 26, 2012
[...] 9. Lire un article sur le Meme Marilyn Monroe – un Meme que je déteste voir jizzer dans ma face trois fois par jour. http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/01/25/the-marilyn-meme/ [...]
miaofdoom — January 26, 2012
This is all very well put, and I have often thought the same. That being said, I'd like to point out that a) Marilyn was PREGNANT in these photos, and b) her " official" measurements were 36-23-37. So she was VERY thin, also stacked, but really... a 23 inch waist is TINY! That would be the equivalent of a size 23 in jeans (d'uh :P ) or a size 00 in dress pants. People go on and on about "real" women and Marilyn being a size 12 or 14 or whatever damned thing but the fact of the matter is, she was a teeny skinny woman. Period.
and that's my rant. :)
James Villarrubia — January 26, 2012
Yep
GOLIATH173 — January 26, 2012
I think we are not giving the image creators enough credit.
Follow me through this assessment, for a sec.
Assumption 1: We cannot escape our own sexuality. Almost all of us share an instinctual need to procreate with other humans with beneficial genetics, regardless of sexual orientation.
Assumption 2: That biological need to procreate is expressed through chemical and neurological reactions resulting in "attraction" and "sexual urge." This still extends to those of the LGBT community, because they experience "sexual attraction" like all of us, whether or not this makes biological sense for procreation - the brain chemistry is the same.
Assumption 3: Through societal constructs, we have loosened the nature of "attraction" to include non-physical traits such as wealth and intelligence.
Assumption 4: Attraction, however, is still largely a physiological response - driven by our brain's instinctual assessment of procreation and health. Image and perception play heavily into that response.
Assumption 5: We have learned to trick our brains through false image and perception in order to encourage greater responses from potential mates. Shiny, red lipstick is attractive to most males because it subconsciously relates to an aroused wet vulva and engorged labia. Clear skin implies a better genetic profile and stronger immune response to bacteria.
Assertion:
THE POINT THE POSTER MAKES... is that we as a society have stretched "attraction" so far from it's biological purpose that we are no longer attracted to "healthy" people. There is proven a range of fat to muscle content that is healthier than living in the extremes (too fat, too thin). Your body needs both muscle and fat to function and it functions better in the right proportions. Though these proportions are different for all people, they fall within obvious ranges.
Yes, the Poster's point is made rather crudely, but that doesn't detract from it's validity. At a base level, Marilyn Monroe SHOULD be more attractive, given her ample bosom, wide hips, and median-range fat-storage... all of which imply a healthy body that can handle the rigors of procreation. The girl on the right seems sickly and possibly too thin to bear children safely.
This is nothing to say of mental health, fetish, sexual orientation, or any other factor that we might deem important in our modern assessment of "attractive" or "unattractive." I cannot look at a picture of blonde woman (like the one of Marilyn) and make any clear assessment about her mental health, sexual orientation, etc. So ONLY given her physical appearance and that of the other girl... I AGREE with the poster and its intent: we should be wary of any societal construct that serves to promote unhealthy bodies as "attractive."
Liz Henry — January 27, 2012
I love your post, except for the end. I am not healthy, but I am still a human being and am extremely awesome. My worth doesn't depend on my health or my physical abilities either.
Pellumb Xhangolli — January 27, 2012
Very beautiful picture, a woman must complete the whole anet.por and proven bypsychology.
Eirin — January 27, 2012
Brilliant. Just brilliant. It couldn't have been said better.
Lis Riba — January 27, 2012
Okay, Buzzfeed had a pretty cute take on this meme.
After the images comparing modern actresses to those of the "Golden Age of Hollywood," they posted another lineup comparing the mid-century actresses to classic Renaissance portraits. And still more comparing those to medieval portraits on back to Venus of Willendorf.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/the-when-did-this-become-hotter-than-this-meme
Shy — January 27, 2012
I've read the comments and I understand the points that
1.) women shouldn't pit themselves against each other
2.) women shouldn't need external affirmation
3.) there are many different body types and all are good
That said, I know growing up I desperately needed to hear "curvy is beautiful."
I have an hourglass build, with pronounced hips and thighs. All the popular girls in high school had a very slender build. All the women on advertizements I see have a very slender build. Almost all the women in video games I play have a very slender build. Almost all the actresses I see on TV have a slender build--and their characters are still told they are getting overweight or they themselves joke about needing to go on a diet. (If THEY are considered unattractive, and I could never look skinny like that, then what am I?) As soon as I hit puberty strangers would comment on how I was getting a lot of meat on my bones, how I had good child-bearing hips and would have a big family. Most of my friends growing up called me thunder-thighs. My mother, who I've always considered glamorous and beautiful, has a very slender build; when I was at my skinniest and fittest in high school, SHE was a size 0. She still praises my cousin for "keeping her shape" when it's obvious I have gained weight since then. She encourages me to exercise often and scolds me for not eating enough healthy food when the truth is I will never, ever be able to look like her. I am perfectly healthy and the median weight for my height and yet every doctor I've had since high school tells me I should keep a tight watch on what I eat.
So, I understand why these pictures are well-meaning but flawed, and yet I'm still so happy to see them.
news you can use: body shaming is bullshit » paper fruit — January 27, 2012
[...] … you know, I’m not even going to engage further with this, it is too ridiculous. But other bloggers have, and much more articulately than me, so, [...]
IamSuperCool — January 28, 2012
Yeah, as a heterosexual man I've never understood how other "heterosexual men" can find 10 year old boys in bikini's attractive.
Anonymous — January 28, 2012
I enjoyed the blog post: it was thoughtful and thought-provoking. Too many of the comments are people just looking for an argument, unfortunately.
janjamm — January 28, 2012
The last sentence was unneeded.
Sunday Snippets « Recovery Bites — January 28, 2012
[...] Marilyn Monroe and why comparing body shape/size isn’t really getting us anywhere. If women are fighting [...]
Pbcfarms — January 29, 2012
Wow, as a bigger gal in a family of tiny women,even as a skinny tean I was made to feel huge. Seeing these pics I felt proud and empowered. Reading this article and being a mom to a tean, now Im rethinking the messag
Bluegreen Lizardqueen — January 29, 2012
Agreed on all counts; this is one of my personal favorite rants to engage in.
A vaguely relevant (?) observation: I'm pretty sure that particular photograph of MM was digitally altered to make her look larger than she was. According to her dressmaker*, she measurements were 36D-22/23-35/36, and at a height of 5'5.5, her weight ranged across the span of her career from 118 to 140. This is a BMI of 19.3 - 22.9 (A healthy BMI is now considered to be between 18.5-24.9). This was not a large woman.
[*
http://jezebel.com/5299793/for-the-last-time-what-size-was-marilyn-monroe ]
Sam Rogowski — January 29, 2012
This is probably the best article I ever read here. At least the one article that applies directly to things that have bothered me lately.
cheap bras — January 29, 2012
Amazing write-up! This could aid plenty of people find out more about this particular issue. Are you keen to integrate video clips coupled with these? It would absolutely help out. Your conclusion was spot on and thanks to you; I probably won’t have to describe everything to my pals. I can simply direct them here!
Andrew — January 29, 2012
I disagree with the overall view you have of the first meme. It is not trying to make one woman look good and the other bad. The meme is trying to get people to understand that you can be beautiful no matter what so stop trying to be so thin. Sure it might "reinforce" that one must be good while the other is bad. However, I can also assume (since we are assuming at this rate) that you are reading too much into this. Men aren't as animalistic as you think. This meme is supposed to do 2 things: 1. Tell men to stop thinking thin is beautiful (because trust me... this was geared towards men) and 2. To help the occasional woman who came across this realize that she can be beautiful no matter what. Now I agree with what you said entirely on the second meme, but as far as the first goes, I believe you are reading far too much into the actual purpose of the meme. At least for me (a man), I took it as a symbol of the redemption of many woman who are not thin and do not feel beautiful because of it.
MM — January 29, 2012
Wouldn't you know it? Marilyn's Law even exists. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Marilyn%27s%20Law
tijen — January 30, 2012
Excellent argument.
http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/01/25/the-marilyn-meme/ « Murder, Tears (& Cake) — January 30, 2012
[...] http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/01/25/the-marilyn-meme/ Like this:LikeBe the first to like this post. from → Uncategorized ← When murder involves tears and cake No comments yet [...]
Heythereimrobb — January 30, 2012
Let's not take the extreme and just get lazy here. Be healthy, stop finding excuses to just settle when you could be better. It's hard to be so pushed in North America that is the land of the free. You have the right of speech, hold firearms, and be as unhealthy from McDonald's as you want. Listen, if you have a medical condition that prevents you from being able to keep in better shape...I get that. At least control what goes in your body to start.
Don't let this campaign give you any excuse what so ever to stop being responsible for your health. Notice how I never use the terms "fat" or "skinny." After all, healthy is different for everyone. There all sorts of body types. Some can't help it that they're more slender than others, and vice versa. However, when I can't get the armrest down in an airplane because this five foot person is wider than the chair...you MUST understand that this is not how the human body should be. Be smart. :)
Heythereimrobb — January 30, 2012
Let's not take the extreme and just get lazy here. Be healthy, stop finding excuses to just settle when you could be better. It's hard to be so pushed in North America that is the land of the free. You have the right of speech, hold firearms, and be as unhealthy from McDonald's as you want. Listen, if you have a medical condition that prevents you from being able to keep in better shape...I get that. At least control what goes in your body to start.
Don't let this campaign give you any excuse what so ever to stop being responsible for your health. Notice how I never use the terms "fat" or "skinny." After all, healthy is different for everyone. There all sorts of body types. Some can't help it that they're more slender than others, and vice versa. However, when I can't get the armrest down in an airplane because this five foot person is wider than the chair...you MUST understand that this is not how the human body should be. Be smart. :)
Tsipi Erann — January 30, 2012
Thank you. While I also agree with the on-the-surface sentiment of these memes, something about them always bothered me, and you helped me put my finger on it. I'll be sharing this!
Alm — January 31, 2012
i think another valid point would be that the way someone looks is what determines if a woman is 'beautiful'. whether you look like a fashion model or marilyn, we will all still be subjected to the male gaze. that is the sad truth of it.
CB — January 31, 2012
Someone on the interwebz made this (http://imgur.com/g3Lcg) in response to the current "when this this.."-meme. I think it is quite illustrative of OP points ("Ladies! You are alle disgusting [...] keep on competing"). Also, it underlines the fact that body perceptions have changed in nonlinear way.
Emily Blackburn — January 31, 2012
I made a post discussing a similar meme the other week. A summary of what I wrote applies here as well:
This is body policing disguised as body positivity. Saying 'being thin is bad' is every bit as damaging as saying 'being fat is bad'. Lining up these women next to each other is degrading to all of them. Beauty standards may have changed, and whether or not you're happy about the way they are, there is no excuse to ridicule those who fit them.
Marilyn Monroe may fit a different standard of beauty to the one we have now, but she still only represents a narrow standard of physical attractiveness. Anyone who points at a thin woman, celebrity or not, and jeers and points out that she is not as 'attractive' or 'hot' as Marilyn Monroe, is not helping anyone's self-esteem.
---
Hmmm. Is the second picture supposed to make me think, 'Ooh, my thighs touch too, hopefully thousands of men will adore me too'?
Myraboow — February 1, 2012
To some degree I agree with your sentiments but these phrases trouble me....
"She was a sex symbol, and thus, stopped existing as human being, a regular girl. Almost everything that fucked up Marilyn’s later life had to do with being “adored” by men."
1- In no way did she stop existing as a human being. What an absurd thing to say! People, whether movie stars or heralded as 'sex symbols' should all be thought of and treated with respect and sensitivity and dignity. I think denying her 'realness' is not treating her with dignity.
2- being 'adored' by men may not be the be all and end all of happiness but nor can it be the be all and end all cause of suffering. You speak as if she had no choices in her life, had no agency and was simply the subject of other's (namely men's) actions. This is true anti-feminism built into your language if not your intentions.
I think that Marilyn was beautiful and was clearly very sad... but both of these are just aspects of who the person was... unfortunately they are all anyone ever bothers to remember or talk about.
She was also hysterically funny with brilliant comic timing and probably many mnay other things.
But heralding her as a poster girl for sexy, can be empowering for those of us her look more like her than current starlets. We should also be sad that beauty is the only value our society puts on her (and many others) who have much more to offer the world.
Joshua — February 1, 2012
Yeah, That's a shame. I've been tripping on how briliiant she is all month. She had such a lovely way. I mean.. really lovely and so loved all over the world for her spirit and wise attitude. I don't think the net memory or her is her body or her sexuality though, so, chin-up Marilyn lovers.
http://youtu.be/uqP9h-oaFag
I’m Lovin’ It! | The Healthy Apron — February 2, 2012
[...] Lovin' It! 1. The Marilyn Meme Article. (Please read by clicking on the [...]
sandy — February 2, 2012
well, she had made it to the top no matter how she looked like because she was adored by many people. And, a bad tragidy toward the end.
Lauren — February 4, 2012
I find the first one much more troubling because it makes a point at the expense of another person. Would the second photo be as upsetting if it read "this woman is super sexy and her thighs touch"? It would be nice if somehow we lived in a world where looks and sex appeal didn't exist but they do. I also don't think it's a fair leap to insinuate Marilyn died due to her identity as a sex object. Interesting conclusions I just see it differently.
SailorAstarte — February 5, 2012
Although I applaud the application that today's "ideal" woman is one that starves herself, it is sad that a woman's body is still being criticized. More so, it's sad that once more Norma Jeane is objectified. At first, as a fan, I thought, cool they're saying she's hotter, but then I realized that she's viewed not as a person, but as simply "sex," her body, not *her*. She herself pointed out that for "The Seven Year Itch", there was a display that showed only her waist/ legs, and how upsetting it was. As for her death, if it was suicide, it was *accidental* and only as a result of people using her and treating her like an object, as property, and not a woman, not a person. *Sigh*.
İdil Övütmen — February 5, 2012
This post does exactly the same thing as the media does, but prefers curvy to skinny. Just saying. Not everyone is born with potential "attractive" curves.
JD — February 7, 2012
"Political brothers purportedly passed her around like a toy"
She may have, but she let it happen to herself. She was in as much control of her life as you and I. She let men influence her decisions because it made her feel good to be wanted. WHAT GIRL DOESNT? But at the end of day, you do it to yourself. Quit relying on men to make you feel good and focus on something constructive. I dont feel bad for her.
demesne — February 11, 2012
Another reason this Marilyn meme annoys me is that the whole "real women have curves" idea really only means that it's good to have curves, provided that those curves are in the "right" places. In other words, a smallish waist, wide hips, and large breasts. How is this ideal any easier to reach than the ideal of tall and skinny? And moreover, it still perpetuates an obsession with female beauty, only it just redirects that attention toward another ideal. Granted, it is true that our culture has an unhealthy obsession with thinness that has had serious consequences...but what makes us think that hoisting up another idol will solve our problems? During Marilyn's time, hordes of women were bleaching their hair light blonde in an effort to get her "look". Is that any better?
I'm naturally a slender person, but I'm also fairly flat-chested, and the times in my life where I weighed more, I never had that "hourglass" figure so worshiped on Marilyn's body. What's left for me? Plastic surgery to attach a pair of melons to my chest and a set of butt implants so I can be a "real" woman with curves?
And Marilyn always gets compared to actresses such as the very skinny Keira Knightley, who ends up being called a "skinny b*tch" and other pejoratives. But honestly it made me so happy to see a successful actress with very small breasts regarded as beautiful.
Perhaps a better solution is simply to admit that physical beauty (in whatever form) is not the most important thing anyway.
'Meditations' on the iconic women who fascinated Michael | MJJ-777 — February 26, 2012
[...] [...]
Stupid Memes | Amila Bosnae — April 17, 2012
[...] is a lot like the Marilyn meme that made the rounds a couple of months ago: it wants (?) to be a nice message to young girls, but [...]
David Fleming — April 18, 2012
http://www.biglolz.com/funny-pics/8498/
Barbara R Saunders — May 3, 2012
I've never been able to get past the absurdity of the notion of Marilyn Monroe as the poster child for achievable beauty.
Sierra Monroe — May 29, 2012
I just would like to remind everyone that Marilyn Monroe was a women's rights activist. She empowered women by showing them that they can go from a life of misery to being the most famous woman in the world with nothing more than hard work and dedication. So while I understand what this author is trying to say here, it would do well for everyone to remember that this was a woman of deep substance, NOT just a sex symbol.
Meaghan — June 30, 2012
i liked this article ... when I first saw the picture I wasnt sure if you were supporting it or not but it angered me straight away .. particularly the action of referring to two women as "this" ... "this is better than this" ... that's like making those two women into a piece of meat .. and women as pieces of meat is the whole big problem of this issue ... I totally agree the first step in healing this however is women learning to lift each other up and stop competing .. its the absolute first step and is our responsibility .. not mens ... oh this issue makes me so mad sometimes .. breathe!!!!
Corey Lee Wrenn — July 18, 2012
"She was a sex symbol, and thus, stopped existing as human being, a regular girl." Would you say the same about a male celebrity? "...a regular boy?" Using the term "girl" for grown women is infantilizing and disempowering.
An Open Letter To Those Hateful Marilyn Memes. | Kisses & Chaos — August 11, 2012
[...] credits: via itsalark | via The Society Pages | Tweet This entry was posted in An Open Letter and tagged acceptance, anorexia, body [...]
Kaetlin Rollison — September 13, 2012
The message to me is about the thin obsessed society we live in. To show that it's beautiful to be fuller. The love for thin women is not lacking in this country, the messages that women get who are not stick thin is usually overwhelmingly, gratuitously that it is wrong. To me there is nothing wrong with showing a different opinion. What, one in a hundred thousand pro thin messages is offensive? The photo's are used as a shock value to me. Gets the message through easier. The second photo, oh well...so is it wrong to admit that I want to attract men? attraction makes the world go round
The Marilyn Meme, and why health gets lost | So Pop Culture — November 17, 2012
[...] meme has been frustrating me for weeks. Heather Cromarty’s article, posted on The Society Pages and Shameless, is spot on. Sure, the unrealistic thin ideal sucks and [...]
Harry Dewulf — November 29, 2012
My reply got out of hand, so I blogged it: http://densewords.blogspot.fr/2012/11/in-reply-to-marilyn-meme-from-shameless.html
Gynomite’s Reading Room! « Gynomite! — January 28, 2013
[...] Marilyn Facebook meme- what’s wrong with it? I picked this because when I initially read it, I thought it had good points about our [...]
Håvard Pedersen — May 2, 2013
Please do not idolize a drug-using homewrecker.
Rachele Margarita — May 17, 2013
wow. i just saw one of these irritating memes and, before engaging in a facebook battle with the rather distant "friend" who posted this (and was probably not going to ever understand where i'm coming from anyway), i decided to research it. suffice to say, i am glad to see i am not the only one incredibly disgusted by these idiotic memes. it's funny that marilyn in fact suffered from depression and an eating disorder, actually thought she was fat, and died from an overdose. her breasts were the size most models today get implants to be, and whether she was curvy or not she was certainly thin (when she wasn't overeating from her depression, she usually weighed around 115 lbs... yeah, really not my idea of NOT anorexic for someone who was over 5'5 tall). but sure, make more women feel shitty about themselves and spread this completely misogynistic sexist hateful idea, so that they can hate themselves too and die in misery like she did. that's really helpful.
maybe we should be saying, before there were anorexia and implants, there were other ways of defining ourselves beyond how attractive we appear to the opposite sex.
Re-Touching the Consequences of Extreme Thinness | Adios Barbie — August 19, 2013
[...] bodies, no matter whether they’re thin or fat. And this is an important point (made well here) and, while I agree that some of the language is harsh, that’s not what’s going on here. The [...]
pop mofolk — August 20, 2013
while I see the feminst edge of the problem, and somehow agree with the observation, something rubs me wrong about the way you're taking this.
I think the memes are a bit extreme and poignant on purpose, as a response to the time an strength these other stereotypes have. You know, the ones we have to deal with, I mean us people who love beauty as a force, more than an appearance.
I don't think skinny women with great ass have to feel victimized over this. I think the bottom line is we all should care more about our ideas than we do about our bodies which are finite... Do we? Do you? How do you translate this to the male world?
Do males have a right to feel angry at any and all magazine covers and superfluous female commentary about butts and abs and "hotness," should hot ab shaming be the next male-feminist move? or is it too extreme like this photos? Are we in danger of doing things all for ourselves, and never to impress the opposite sex? Is that even natural and can both genders get on it?
dirk — August 21, 2013
her thighs would be touching with me ;)
CynthiaC.M. — August 21, 2013
Marilyn Monroe had a 23-24" waist, according to her stats. That's more or less the same as most female celebrities (especially those under 45) today. She was just less...toned (as everyone was back then, men included) and had a bigger bustline and hips.
Monica Walker — August 29, 2013
We are constantly being bombarded with message about, what we are , who we are, what we mean and dont mean. Too fat, too thin, a slut, a conformist, a doormat. We are told we cam make choices and we are told our choices are predisposed by culture.
ENOUGH! To pit us against each other, to devide us. To make our whole in fragments. This is done to unfocus us. As a whole society is afraid of a female united front. They are afraid to truly give us power. Not beacuse we will do harm but because we may outshine those that rule at the present moment....and even if we did not outshine them, they would know we are equal to them and we could run a society with or without their guidence.
Haley — August 29, 2013
In response to the second picture, I would add that it shouldn't be about what you need to look like to attract men, but about how you feel about your body for yourself. That's what body positivity is, it's not about impressing someone else or being gawked at or viewed as a sex symbol.
Qanni Katifa — August 29, 2013
Back then all women were sex objects! All women's thighs touched! A size 14 then is a size 10 today. That was over 50 years ago, things change you know. She was beautiful, had a great body and all women wanted to be like her.
Desya_beloved — August 29, 2013
Marilyn is pregnant in that photo anyway...
Marvin Harrison — August 30, 2013
Society isn't this foreign thing that's imposing things on us. We are society. I just think it's important to remember that.
Tiring — August 31, 2013
What is beautiful is beautiful, no matter the size. If you are a physically attractive person, you'll probably keep on being attrative despite your size.
This Marilyn memes are misleading. Not everyone with a size 12/14/whatever is attractive, the same way that not everyone who is [blonde/tall/busty/skinny/etc.] is attractive.
Stop complaining about body stereotypes and use your time to live your life.
Models Are So Thin Magazines Have To Photoshop Them Fatter | BaciNews — December 31, 2013
[…] bodies, no matter whether they’re thin or fat. And this is an important point (made well here) and, while I agree that some of the language is harsh, that’s not what’s going on […]
You'd Be Shocked at What These Fashion Editors Are Editing Out of Their Photos | EguidEz — January 6, 2014
[…] bodies, no matter whether they’re thin or fat. This is an important point (made well here) and while I agree that some of the language is harsh, that’s not what’s going on here. […]
You’d Be Shocked at What These Fashion Editors Are Editing Out of Their Photos – Huffington Post | Men Apparel Online — January 6, 2014
[…] bodies, no matter whether they’re thin or fat. This is an important point (made well here) and while I agree that some of the language is harsh, that’s not what’s going on here. […]
You'd Be Shocked at What These Fashion Editors Are Editing Out of Their Photos | Your Ideal Weight Chart — January 6, 2014
[…] bodies, no matter whether they’re thin or fat. This is an important point (made well here) and while I agree that some of the language is harsh, that’s not what’s going on here. […]
You’d Be Shocked at What These Fashion Editors Are Editing Out of Their Photos | BrownGirlsCONNECT — January 6, 2014
[…] bodies, no matter whether they’re thin or fat. This is an important point (made well here) and while I agree that some of the language is harsh, that’s not what’s going on here. […]
You’d Be Shocked at What These Fashion Editors Are Editing Out of Their Photos | Lisa Wade | Just Sayin' — January 8, 2014
[…] bodies, no matter whether they’re thin or fat. This is an important point (made well here) and while I agree that some of the language is harsh, that’s not what’s going on here. […]
Ann Mullen — January 9, 2014
Boy, did you guys get off the topic. The problem with the meme is that women don't need to compare themselves to each other. The problem with the solo picture is that women don't need thousands of men adoring her for her to feel adorable. Neither of these is healthy for a woman's self-esteem.
Sandy — January 13, 2014
Marylin is the face of the "natural beauty" movement. But she underwent plastic surgery to look like she did...
health MATTERS – the aesthetic costs of Extreme Thinness. | The Girl Who Would be KING — January 18, 2014
[…] bodies, no matter whether they’re thin or fat. This is an important point (made well here) and while I agree that some of the language is harsh, that’s not what’s going on here. […]
You’d Be Shocked at What These Fashion Editors Are Editing Out of Their Photos | Missy Jubilee's sex blog — January 20, 2014
[…] bodies, no matter whether they’re thin or fat. This is an important point (made well here) and while I agree that some of the language is harsh, that’s not what’s going on here. […]
You’d Be Shocked at What These Fashion Editors Are Editing Out of Their Photos | ShoesandDrama.com — February 7, 2014
[…] bodies, no matter whether they’re thin or fat. This is an important point (made well here) and while I agree that some of the language is harsh, that’s not what’s going on here. […]
A rant about shrinking women, ageism, and fabulous pants. | Casa Luna de Miel — February 15, 2014
[…] is an article linked to that exposé that talks about Marilyn Munroe. The point of the article is MM may have been […]
Top moments de bonheur | melodienelsonmaman — March 20, 2014
[…] Lire un article sur le Meme Marilyn Monroe – un Meme que je déteste voir jizzer dans ma face trois fois par […]
Melissa — June 28, 2014
If people knew maryling is close to a size 4 in todays standards...sixing back then was different than todays...a size 10 is a lot smaller in the 1940s....silly women....men like what men like ..deal with it.
Meme Republic Indonesia | Kumpulan Cara dan Pengetahuan — March 2, 2015
[…] The marilyn meme » sociological images – the society pages […]
not you — April 5, 2015
This is only proof that a girl can also make a meme. (and write an article)
Fuck — February 19, 2021
Why u look like u got period blood in your hair