In this TED video sent in by BlackCat and Chana Messinger, Tony Porter gives a nice introduction to what it means — for men, women, sons, and daughters — that men are confined by the dictates of masculinity. (Trigger warning: at about the 9 minute mark, there is a story about a sexual assault.)
Transcript after the jump (thanks to DECIUS for posting it in the comments).
Lisa Wade, PhD is an Associate Professor at Tulane University. She is the author of American Hookup, a book about college sexual culture; a textbook about gender; and a forthcoming introductory text: Terrible Magnificent Sociology. You can follow her on Twitter and Instagram.I grew up in New York City, between Harlem and the Bronx. Growing up as a boy, we were taught that men had to be tough, had to be strong, had to be courageous, dominating — no pain, no emotions, with the exception of anger — and definitely no fear — that men are in charge, which means women are not; that men lead, and you should just follow and do what we say; that men are superior, women are inferior; that men are strong, women are weak; that women are of less value — property of men — and objects, particularly sexual objects. I’ve later come to know that to be the collective socialization of men, better known as the “man box.” See this man box has in it all the ingredients of how we define what it means to be a man. Now I also want to say, without a doubt, there are some wonderful, wonderful, absolutely wonderful things about being a man. But at the same time, there’s some stuff that’s just straight up twisted. And we really need to begin to challenge, look at it and really get in the process of deconstructing, redefining, what we come to know as manhood.
This is my two at home, Kendall and Jay. They’re 11 and 12. Kendall’s 15 months older than Jay. There was a period of time when my wife, her name is Tammie, and I, we just got real busy and whip, bam, boom: Kendall and Jay. (Laughter) And when they were about five and six, four and five, Jay could come to me, come to me crying. It didn’t matter what she was crying about, she could get on my knee, she could snot my sleeve up, just cry, cry it out. Daddy’s got you. That’s all that’s important.
Now Kendall on the other hand — and like I said, he’s only 15 months older than her — he came to me crying, it’s like as soon as I would hear him cry, a clock would go off. I would give the boy probably about 30 seconds, which means, by the time he got to me, I was already saying things like, “Why are you crying? Hold your head up. Look at me. Explain to me what’s wrong. Tell me what’s wrong. I can’t understand you. Why are you crying?” And out of my own frustration of my role and responsibility of building him up as a man to fit into these guidelines and these structures that are defining this man box, I would find myself saying things like, “Just go in your room. Just go on, go on in your room. Sit down, get yourself together and come back and talk to me when you can talk to me like a –” What? (Audience: Man.) “like a man.” And he’s five years old. And as I grow in life, I would say to myself, “My God, what’s wrong with me? What am I doing? Why would I this?” And I think back. I think back to my father.
There was a time in my life where we had a very troubled experience in our family. My brother, Henry, he died tragically when we were teenagers. We lived in New York City, as I said. We lived in the Bronx at the time. And the burial was in a place called Long Island, it was about two hours outside of the city. And as we were preparing to come back from the burial, the cars stopped at the bathroom to let folks take care of themselves before the long ride back to the city. And the limousine empties out. My mother, my sister, my auntie, they all get out, but my father and I stayed in the limousine. And no sooner than the women got out, he burst out crying. He didn’t want cry in front of me. But he knew he wasn’t going to make it back to the city, and it was better me than to allow himself to express these feelings and emotions in front of the women. And this is a man who, 10 minutes ago, had just put his teenage son in the ground — something I just can’t even imagine. The thing that sticks with me the most is that he was apologizing to me for crying in front of me. And at the same time, he was also giving me props, lifting me up, for not crying.
I come to also look at this as this fear that we have as men, this fear that just has us paralyzed, holding us hostage to this man box. I can remember speaking to a 12 year-old boy, a football player, and I asked him, I said, “How would you feel if, in front of all the players, your coach told you you were playing like a girl?” Now I expected him to say something like, I’d be sad, I’d be mad, I’d be angry, or something like that. No, the boy said to me — the boy said to me, “It would destroy me.” And I said to myself, “God, if it would destroy him to be called a girl, what are we then teaching him about girls?”
(Applause)
It took me back to a time when I was about 12 years old. I grew up in tenement buildings in the inner-city. At this time we’re living in the Bronx. And in the building next to where I lived there was a guy named Johnny. He was about 16 years old, and we were all about 12 years old — younger guys. And he was hanging out with all us younger guys. And this guy, he was up to a lot of no good. He was the kind of kid who parents would have to wonder, “What is this 16 year-old boy doing with these 12 year-old boys?” And he did spend a lot of time up to no good. He was a troubled kid. His mother had died from a heroin overdose. He was being raised by his grandmother. His father wasn’t on the set. His grandmother had two jobs. He was home alone a lot. But I’ve got to tell you, we young guys, we looked up to this dude. He was cool. He was fine. That’s what the sisters said, “He was fine.” He was having sex. We all looked up to him.
So one day, I’m out in front of the house doing something — just playing around, doing something — I don’t know what. He looks out his window, he calls me upstairs, he said, “Hey Anthony.” They called my Anthony growing up as a kid. “Hey Anthony, come on upstairs.” Johnny call, you go. So I run right upstairs. As he opens the door, he says to me, “Do you want some?” Now I immediately knew what he meant. Because for me growing up at that time, and our relationship with this man box, do you want some meant one of two things, sex or drugs — and we weren’t doing drugs. Now my box, card, man box card, was immediately in jeopardy. Two things: One, I never had sex. We don’t talk about that as men. You only tell your dearest, closest friend, sworn to secrecy for life, the first time you had sex. For everybody else, we go around like we’ve been having sex since we were two. There ain’t no first time. (Laughter) The other thing I couldn’t tell him is that I didn’t want any. That’s even worse. We’re supposed to always be on the prowl. Women are objects, especially sexual objects.
Anyway, so I couldn’t tell him any of that. So, like my mother would say, make a long story short. I just simply said to Johnny, “Yes.” He told me to go in his room. I go in his room. On his bed is a girl from the neighborhood named Sheila. She’s 16 years old. She’s nude. She’s what I know today to be mentally ill, higher functioning at times than others. We had a whole choice’s-worth of inappropriate names for her. Anyway, Johnny had just gotten through having sex with her. Well actually, he raped her, but he would say he had sex with her. Because, while Sheila never said no, she also never said yes.
So he was offering me the opportunity to do the same. So when I go in the room, I close the door. Folks, I’m petrified. I stand with my back to the door so Johnny can’t bust in the room and see that I’m not doing anything. And I stand there long enough that I could have actually done something. So now I’m no longer trying to figure out what I’m going to do, I’m trying to figure out how I’m going to get out of this room. So in my 12 years of wisdom, I zip my pants down, I walk out into the room. And lo and behold to me, while I was in the room with Sheila, Johnny was back at the window calling guys up. So now there’s a living room full of guys. It was like the waiting room in the doctor’s office. And they asked me how was it. And I say to them, “It was good.” And I zip my pants up in front of them, and I head for the door.
Now I say this all with remorse, and I was feeling a tremendous amount of remorse at that time, but I was conflicted, because, while I was feeling remorse, I was excited, because I didn’t get caught, but I knew I felt bad about what was happening. This fear getting outside the man box totally enveloped me. It was way more important to me, about me and my man box card than about Sheila and what was happening to her.
See collectively, we as men are taught to have less value in women, to view them as property and the objects of men. We see that as an equation that equals violence against women. We as men, good men, the large majority of men, we operate on the foundation of this whole collective socialization. We kind of see ourselves separate, but we’re very much a part of it. You see, we have to come to understand that less value, property and objectification is the foundation and the violence can’t happen without it. So we’re very much a part of the solution as well as the problem. The center for disease control says that men’s violence against women is at epidemic proportions, is the number one health concern for women in this country and abroad.
So quickly, I’d like to just say, this is the love of my life, my daughter Jay. The world I envision for her, how do I want men to be acting and behaving? I need you on board. I need you with me. I need you working with me and me working with you on how we raise our sons and teach them to be men — that it’s okay to not be dominating, that it’s okay to have feelings and emotions, that it’s okay to promote equality, that it’s okay to have women who are just friends and that’s it, that it’s okay to be whole, that my liberation as a man is tied to your liberation as a woman.
I remember asking a nine year-old boy. I asked a nine year-old boy, “What would life be like for you, if you didn’t have to adhere to this man box?” He said to me, “I would be free.”
Thank you folks.
(Applause)
Comments 86
Samantha C — April 10, 2011
It might be a really good idea to warn that there's a story about sexual assault around the 9-minute mark. It's not tremendously graphic but it's clear enough
Cute Bruiser — April 10, 2011
Maybe a trigger warning? There was some pretty harsh stuff in there.
Albert — April 10, 2011
That was a really inspiring talk though. I'm glad that, as a non-heterosexual, i did not fit in the 'man box' from the beginning, which at first lead to a lot of angst and insecurity, but is now liberating: if I'm not 'manly' because of my sexuality anyway, I don't have to be 'a man' 24/7 in other situations either. I am free to be who I want to be. Those that discriminate against us: I feel sorry for you, that you haven't figured this one out yet. Thanks, Tony Porter.
Soph — April 10, 2011
Oh my lord. This is horrible. I feel sick.
Kenny — April 10, 2011
As my life has progressed, I've really come to understand how much I (a totally heterosexual, competitive guy) was held in by the man box, because I am also very emotional, caring, and sensitive. It's a long road freeing yourself from those shackles. I wonder if there's a similar box for women, but I have no idea.
And yes, we all need to work together, men and women, to break down that man box.
m — April 10, 2011
I'm not sure why, but I do hope that a lot of men comes to these lectures. Considering that it is about them and their identity, and that there seems to be such a complete lack of interest in gender issues to this group, who also happens to have almost all power, it would be a great thing if this could be a start to norm critical thinking among men to the same extent that there is among women.
Chris — April 10, 2011
Hmm. The "man box" he describes is not every man's experience, and to the extent that it is, mothers and other women create that box too.
:D — April 10, 2011
Victim of the "Man Box."
Parents divorced after my biological dad got strike three from my mom. He had a very bad gambling habit, and that fucker decided it would be a good idea to gamble the deed of the house.
He was never a good gambler.
But after the divorce (it was so one sided that my mom got an Annulment from the Catholic Church after 15 years) everyone was emotional. But man box told me to not show sadness, grief, or "weakness." I was never directly told this, I just didn't want to be a burden to me or my sisters.
Needless to say, I had three ulcers at the age of 10.
Feels bad man.
MaggieDanger — April 10, 2011
This was very difficult to listen to, but I think the raw nature of it made the point a lot more poignant. His personal experiences show just how terrifying the consequences of casual inequality ("you throw like a girl," "don't be a pussy") can actually be. Misogyny, rape, violence against women etc. don't just appear out of thin air - they build on things like casual sexism, homophobia, and the glorification of aggression as a masculine trait. And it's one thing to describe these as a theory and another to describe THINGS THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED TO YOU and the other boys in the neighborhood at a surprisingly young age. It's not every boy's experience, but he made it clear that this was the mentality of an entire community of boys, and that the snowball of casual sexism combined with peer pressure and mob mentality can swiftly lead to something honestly terrifying.
And I agree with the other comments that think this deserves a trigger warning.
Marissa — April 10, 2011
Can we get a trigger warning on this please? I would have heeded that. Thanks.
tyson — April 10, 2011
I have seen a lot of similar videos/lectures and this is one of the better ones because he connects things pretty well in a short amount of time.
I think 'maggiedanger' said it well with regards to the 'snowball of casual sexism.' it is very much tied to the somewhat less abrasive, yet highly common, sexist lingo and epithets that fly around balls fields, high schools and board rooms.
and the 'man box' today constrains a lot of women too. not just as the objects (of abuse and violence etc.), but as women actors who are cut off, contemptuous of emotions, and overly indebted/wedded to the same pernicious masculine ideals.
also this 'man box' is unequally applied. and often the basis of much confusion. it is far easier to opt of (or ignore) for certain groups of boys, men etc. than others. this is often tied to resources and power. adhering and defining one's own more flexible (i.e.: feminist) masculinity isn't a simple new-age like personal choice, as some suggest above.
Finnegan — April 10, 2011
Slightly off-topic, but I've recently discovered an effective way to root out any casual racists in an online community: post this and wait for them to explain that the masculinity which porter describes is unique to working class African-Americans. -_-
decius — April 10, 2011
Transcript from the TED website, fair use (academic).
I grew up in New York City, between Harlem and the Bronx. Growing up as a boy, we were taught that men had to be tough, had to be strong, had to be courageous, dominating -- no pain, no emotions, with the exception of anger -- and definitely no fear -- that men are in charge, which means women are not; that men lead, and you should just follow and do what we say; that men are superior, women are inferior; that men are strong, women are weak; that women are of less value -- property of men -- and objects, particularly sexual objects. I've later come to know that to be the collective socialization of men, better known as the "man box." See this man box has in it all the ingredients of how we define what it means to be a man. Now I also want to say, without a doubt, there are some wonderful, wonderful, absolutely wonderful things about being a man. But at the same time, there's some stuff that's just straight up twisted. And we really need to begin to challenge, look at it and really get in the process of deconstructing, redefining, what we come to know as manhood.
This is my two at home, Kendall and Jay. They're 11 and 12. Kendall's 15 months older than Jay. There was a period of time when my wife, her name is Tammie, and I, we just got real busy and whip, bam, boom: Kendall and Jay. (Laughter) And when they were about five and six, four and five, Jay could come to me, come to me crying. It didn't matter what she was crying about, she could get on my knee, she could snot my sleeve up, just cry, cry it out. Daddy's got you. That's all that's important.
Now Kendall on the other hand -- and like I said, he's only 15 months older than her -- he came to me crying, it's like as soon as I would hear him cry, a clock would go off. I would give the boy probably about 30 seconds, which means, by the time he got to me, I was already saying things like, "Why are you crying? Hold your head up. Look at me. Explain to me what's wrong. Tell me what's wrong. I can't understand you. Why are you crying?" And out of my own frustration of my role and responsibility of building him up as a man to fit into these guidelines and these structures that are defining this man box, I would find myself saying things like, "Just go in your room. Just go on, go on in your room. Sit down, get yourself together and come back and talk to me when you can talk to me like a --" What? (Audience: Man.) "like a man." And he's five years old. And as I grow in life, I would say to myself, "My God, what's wrong with me? What am I doing? Why would I this?" And I think back. I think back to my father.
There was a time in my life where we had a very troubled experience in our family. My brother, Henry, he died tragically when we were teenagers. We lived in New York City, as I said. We lived in the Bronx at the time. And the burial was in a place called Long Island, it was about two hours outside of the city. And as we were preparing to come back from the burial, the cars stopped at the bathroom to let folks take care of themselves before the long ride back to the city. And the limousine empties out. My mother, my sister, my auntie, they all get out, but my father and I stayed in the limousine. And no sooner than the women got out, he burst out crying. He didn't want cry in front of me. But he knew he wasn't going to make it back to the city, and it was better me than to allow himself to express these feelings and emotions in front of the women. And this is a man who, 10 minutes ago, had just put his teenage son in the ground -- something I just can't even imagine. The thing that sticks with me the most is that he was apologizing to me for crying in front of me. And at the same time, he was also giving me props, lifting me up, for not crying.
I come to also look at this as this fear that we have as men, this fear that just has us paralyzed, holding us hostage to this man box. I can remember speaking to a 12 year-old boy, a football player, and I asked him, I said, "How would you feel if, in front of all the players, your coach told you you were playing like a girl?" Now I expected him to say something like, I'd be sad, I'd be mad, I'd be angry, or something like that. No, the boy said to me -- the boy said to me, "It would destroy me." And I said to myself, "God, if it would destroy him to be called a girl, what are we then teaching him about girls?"
(Applause)
It took me back to a time when I was about 12 years old. I grew up in tenement buildings in the inner-city. At this time we're living in the Bronx. And in the building next to where I lived there was a guy named Johnny. He was about 16 years old, and we were all about 12 years old -- younger guys. And he was hanging out with all us younger guys. And this guy, he was up to a lot of no good. He was the kind of kid who parents would have to wonder, "What is this 16 year-old boy doing with these 12 year-old boys?" And he did spend a lot of time up to no good. He was a troubled kid. His mother had died from a heroin overdose. He was being raised by his grandmother. His father wasn't on the set. His grandmother had two jobs. He was home alone a lot. But I've got to tell you, we young guys, we looked up to this dude. He was cool. He was fine. That's what the sisters said, "He was fine." He was having sex. We all looked up to him.
So one day, I'm out in front of the house doing something -- just playing around, doing something -- I don't know what. He looks out his window, he calls me upstairs, he said, "Hey Anthony." They called my Anthony growing up as a kid. "Hey Anthony, come on upstairs." Johnny call, you go. So I run right upstairs. As he opens the door, he says to me, "Do you want some?" Now I immediately knew what he meant. Because for me growing up at that time, and our relationship with this man box, do you want some meant one of two things, sex or drugs -- and we weren't doing drugs. Now my box, card, man box card, was immediately in jeopardy. Two things: One, I never had sex. We don't talk about that as men. You only tell your dearest, closest friend, sworn to secrecy for life, the first time you had sex. For everybody else, we go around like we've been having sex since we were two. There ain't no first time. (Laughter) The other thing I couldn't tell him is that I didn't want any. That's even worse. We're supposed to always be on the prowl. Women are objects, especially sexual objects.
Anyway, so I couldn't tell him any of that. So, like my mother would say, make a long story short. I just simply said to Johnny, "Yes." He told me to go in his room. I go in his room. On his bed is a girl from the neighborhood named Sheila. She's 16 years old. She's nude. She's what I know today to be mentally ill, higher functioning at times than others. We had a whole choice's-worth of inappropriate names for her. Anyway, Johnny had just gotten through having sex with her. Well actually, he raped her, but he would say he had sex with her. Because, while Sheila never said no, she also never said yes.
So he was offering me the opportunity to do the same. So when I go in the room, I close the door. Folks, I'm petrified. I stand with my back to the door so Johnny can't bust in the room and see that I'm not doing anything. And I stand there long enough that I could have actually done something. So now I'm no longer trying to figure out what I'm going to do, I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to get out of this room. So in my 12 years of wisdom, I zip my pants down, I walk out into the room. And lo and behold to me, while I was in the room with Sheila, Johnny was back at the window calling guys up. So now there's a living room full of guys. It was like the waiting room in the doctor's office. And they asked me how was it. And I say to them, "It was good." And I zip my pants up in front of them, and I head for the door.
Now I say this all with remorse, and I was feeling a tremendous amount of remorse at that time, but I was conflicted, because, while I was feeling remorse, I was excited, because I didn't get caught, but I knew I felt bad about what was happening. This fear getting outside the man box totally enveloped me. It was way more important to me, about me and my man box card than about Sheila and what was happening to her.
See collectively, we as men are taught to have less value in women, to view them as property and the objects of men. We see that as an equation that equals violence against women. We as men, good men, the large majority of men, we operate on the foundation of this whole collective socialization. We kind of see ourselves separate, but we're very much a part of it. You see, we have to come to understand that less value, property and objectification is the foundation and the violence can't happen without it. So we're very much a part of the solution as well as the problem. The center for disease control says that men's violence against women is at epidemic proportions, is the number one health concern for women in this country and abroad.
So quickly, I'd like to just say, this is the love of my life, my daughter Jay. The world I envision for her, how do I want men to be acting and behaving? I need you on board. I need you with me. I need you working with me and me working with you on how we raise our sons and teach them to be men -- that it's okay to not be dominating, that it's okay to have feelings and emotions, that it's okay to promote equality, that it's okay to have women who are just friends and that's it, that it's okay to be whole, that my liberation as a man is tied to your liberation as a woman.
I remember asking a nine year-old boy. I asked a nine year-old boy, "What would life be like for you, if you didn't have to adhere to this man box?" He said to me, "I would be free."
Thank you folks.
(Applause)
Eric Marinelli — April 10, 2011
When there was, as Mr. Porter described, a "waiting room" of women waiting to fuck the girl with mental health challenges, I think that truly may have been the most disturbed I have ever felt in my life. I had to get out of my chair and lie on my bed for a good twenty minutes in complete shock. This definitely should have had a warning.
Lars Fischer — April 11, 2011
This is, indeed, a great talk. I speaks volumes about the importance of self-inspection and reflection, and about the danger of blindly accepting roles we are handed. Doing so is hard work; the only way forward is to encourage each other to keep challenging normative roles and behaviour. And yes, that applies to all of us.
Diavola — April 11, 2011
CAN WE GET A TRIGGER WARNING UP IN HERE, PLEASE?! Damnit, shouldn't have to ask more than twice.
:D — April 11, 2011
There seems to be a lot of derailing with all this trigger warning talk. :S
CrimsonZ — April 12, 2011
I always like seeing stories like this. There just don't seem to be many places where this subject can be discussed. Often times you run into people that tell you to "be a man and deal with it" or "boo hoo, 'I've got straight man problems.'" Thanks for posting this. =) I just wish that this was a topic that could actually be discussed in society at large.
T — April 12, 2011
**Applause**
I have been thinking about this kind of thing a lot lately. I'm performing in a stage production for the first time, and while I was already really good friends with all these guys beforehand, and they're all really good guys, not homophobic, not genuine sexists or misogynists, nevertheless the gender performance atmosphere in the men's dressing room is so thick you could cut it with a knife. The pressure to join in on their manly jokes, their sexist and misogynistic jokes, is quite strong, and frankly I don't know how to be that manly. I'm just not that macho myself; it's not who I am.
And so I have struggled to deal with it. It's amazing the extent to which intelligent, mature, open-minded, educated adult men will still play these games, pretending to be more sexually experienced or skilled or whatever than they really are, or at the very least not admitting otherwise... We all join in for fear of others thinking less of us, but I really have to wonder how many of them in the dressing room, like myself, feel differently below that veneer and are truly just pretending, just playing along. It's a performance, not reflecting our true selves, performed for the benefit of fitting in, when in fact if we all simply dropped the act and were honest with one another about not wanting or needing to see/hear that performance from one another, well, we could be so much more genuine and save ourselves a lot of emotional anxiety and effort in maintaining multiple personalities, or a false front.
I count myself terribly privileged and fortunate to have never had to deal with some of the situations this man discusses in his talk. But I think the main point - the societal pressure to have to "be a man", i.e. to act a certain way, and to not admit weakness or sexual inexperience - carries over, no matter what race/ethnicity you are, whether you grew up in the inner city or the white picket fenced suburbs. Whether you're in a bedroom in a tenement building being presented with a naked girl, or whether you're in a men's dressing room in the theatre at a prestigious university, the pressure to act as though you're sexually experienced and skilled, emotionally non-vulnerable, and, frankly, misogynistic and sexist, is quite strong in our society, and is an issue to be acknowledged and addressed and hopefully, somehow, alleviated.
If you're focusing solely or primarily on the young woman in the story, and on the rape, you're missing the point. Yes, rape is a very serious issue, an extremely serious matter, especially when it concerns someone who is mentally challenged. And I do not mean to make light of women's issues, any women's issues. But just because women might have it harder in our society does not mean that straight men don't have issues, that our issues don't count, don't matter. We as a society need to work together to change societal attitudes about women, about straight men, about gays and lesbians, about gender and sex as a whole, and I think that addressing this subject, acknowledging that this oft-overlooked limiting/oppressive pressure to act like a man exists and is unnatural or unnecessary is an important step towards that.
Yrro — April 12, 2011
Honestly - and I'm prepared to be flamed for this - I *like* large parts of living in the man box.
First of all, let's separate the "man up" aspects of this talk from the "complete disregard for another human being" parts. Rape is awful, whether the victim or perpetrator is male or female. Any part of culture that leads to that sort of horrid behavior is broken. That's not the part I'm talking about - and I would add that there are as many man box attributes that lead to men as the protector of women as there are that lead to men as an aggressor.
No, I want to talk about the "plays like a girl", don't cry in front of people, deal with issues yourself aspect of being a man. This aspect of the man box exists for a purpose - it *forces* men to deal with the real world. Girls being allowed to run to dad to cry is the false comfort of lowered expectations. A man is not socially allowed to give less than his all, to go to pieces in an important moment, or to fail in general. And this allows, even forces men to rise to the occasion. That is the purpose of the man box - to keep him functioning and useful to his family no matter what.
I am not saying women cannot do this. I believe fully that women and men have equal innate capabilities. I am saying that society does not require it of them. The advantage (if you can call it that) of lowered expectations is that if you break down no one blames you for it.
Now, one can take it too far. There is a point at which strength can become brittle, and we should definitely be trying to reshape and optimize the man box. But I would much prefer that we take the best parts of it and start applying it to everyone than bring men down to the level previously reserved for the more "fragile" gender. Women are only fragile because we allow them to be - I don't see the point of creating a class of fragile men.
Demosthenes XXI — April 13, 2011
As a man, I resent the reigning idea that seems to be bandied about regarding that there is something wrong with "being a man," or "masculinity."
Don't get me wrong; we as men need to evolve and become more than what we are. My only 2 objections are that all of this dialog comes from and is being contextually framed within a feminist paradigm and that traditional masculine behaviors, values, and viewpoints are being blanket-labeled "harmful" or "toxic" as opposed to specific items being called out.
For the record, this particular post does a good job of singling out specific modes of behavior and questioning a very focused subset of traits that get in the way of freedom of expression. However, I have to question the ideas that are being mistakenly drawn from this by people who support feminist ideology; that men have to adopt feminine ideals to become better beings and that we can't make that transition without feminist "oversight."
There are problems within the male community, but those problems cannot be solved by feminism and feminist ideals because they were and are designed to deal with problems within femininity, not within masculinity. In fact the entire language of gender debate has been framed within a feminist paradigm. Furthermore, many feminists have been actively trying to take over the debate within male-centric groups. Feminism had the freedom to create it's own language to frame the problems specific to their struggle, but when men have tried to do the same thing, we have been attacked by feminists or have had feminists try to tell us that our connotive framing and contextualization is wrong, without even considering the direction we are coming from.
Men need the freedom to be able to explore the frontier of our gender's changing landscape without feminist "supervision." When women sought to find their new path beyond the traditional roles that they held, they insisted that they had to find that road without male influence or input. Why is it that many feminists feel that men cannot or should not have that same right?
Lurker — April 16, 2011
I'm a guy, and I've got to say that society doesn't have to be/ shouldn't be prescriptive; people should go with their natural strengths, whatever mix of characteristics they have, they just shouldn't expect everyone else to be the same as them. Having said that, I tried to treat women as equals, and about half of the women I have had dealings with over the years have had problems with it, one way or another, same goes for men: - about half.
In both sexes, the problem for many was that one person *had* to be dominant. I've met men who treated me as inferior simply because I treated women with respect. I've met women with the same attitude. If I treated them as equals, *some* women would respond by treating me as inferior; where I was in a relationship, some would end it because they "didn't feel like I was treating them like a woman" or "you don't make me feel protected/fathered", or others would say something like "I don't want to date I guy where I feel like I'm competing with him". Note that many other women (usually the better educated ones, sad to say) had no issue with being treated as equals. I guess I'm saying that some men and women victimise themselves and each other because of their conditioning, and it's really hard to break. Having the luxury of a good education helps, but life isn't fair. All we can do is try to wear away at he problem, like the river wears away at the mountain, with the goal of making this world a more awesome place to live in.
Lurker — April 16, 2011
I'm a guy, and I've got to say that society doesn't have to be/ shouldn't be prescriptive; people should go with their natural strengths, whatever mix of characteristics they have, they just shouldn't expect everyone else to be the same as them. Having said that, I tried to treat women as equals, and about half of the women I have had dealings with over the years have had problems with it, one way or another, same goes for men: - about half.
In both sexes, the problem for many was that one person *had* to be dominant. I've met men who treated me as inferior simply because I treated women with respect. I've met women with the same attitude. If I treated them as equals, *some* women would respond by treating me as inferior; where I was in a relationship, some would end it because they "didn't feel like I was treating them like a woman" or "you don't make me feel protected/fathered", or others would say something like "I don't want to date I guy where I feel like I'm competing with him". Note that many other women (usually the better educated ones, sad to say) had no issue with being treated as equals. I guess I'm saying that some men and women victimise themselves and each other because of their conditioning, and it's really hard to break. Having the luxury of a good education helps, but life isn't fair. All we can do is try to wear away at the problem, like the river wears away at the mountain, with the goal of making this world a more awesome place to live in.
Lurker — April 16, 2011
Sorry for the double post. Can't delete now.
C L O S E R » Blog Archive » Masculinity Box – The Smell of Burning Ants — April 21, 2011
[...] H/T: Socioimages [...]
Steve — April 28, 2011
This is now a problem of perpetuation as much as it is men's own internalized beliefs on masculinity (Tony pointed out using the example of his behavior towards his own son). My mother was so scared of the possibility of me being mocked or outcast that she would hammer me with masculine ideals any chance she could get. It'd be like, "Hey, you can cry all your want, but you know girls will think you're a loser if you do." Obviously her intentions were good, but they were in direct conflict with her values (in the same way that people will support gays, but freak out if their own children are gay).
Even though I'm pretty sure his last bit (where his son said he "would be free") is completely made up, it makes a whole lot of sense. For the people that don't fit in the box, pretending you're someone you're not is a more trying experience than whatever horrible things await you outside the box.
Il s’appelait Snowball, c’était un breuvage blanc — Le Tag Parfait — May 13, 2011
[...] homo, évidemment). Résultat ? Que dalle. Nada. Le néant de l’arroseur arrosé. Putain de porno hétéronormé, putain de low-grade straight-boy phobia. Il est grands temps de contredire la métaphysique des [...]
The Priesthood: A Feminist Perspective « theladymo — November 30, 2011
[...] pure knowledge, showing forth an outpouring of love, etc) are not exactly the boldest words in the socially constructed man-box (seriously, watch this or read the transcript). In fact, those qualities would probably land you [...]
Randall Mckay — January 20, 2012
There are a lot of words on this page about just being confident and letting yourself 'be'.