Today’s XKCD strip bothers me, a little. It reminds me of the discussion about assertiveness amongst nerd guys brought up when Gabe and Tycho at Penny Arcade were talking about “pick-up artists” (PUAs) a while back.
Here’s my issue: I get that a lot of straight guys (and women, but I want to primarily talk about men here) who identify as nerds (or don’t, for that matter) have confidence issues, especially around romantic or sexual interests*. But I also think that messages like the XKCD strip really reinforce that idea of isolation and make the world out to be filled with potential mates — if only you’d just talk to them! There’s some truth here, in that it’s pretty hard to meet people if you find it hard to talk to communicate with others. But the more insidious, unintended message I’m seeing is one that just feeds into the PUA logic — given enough confidence and skills, all women are yours for the taking.
I know some people are probably going to think I’m reaching here, and are going to say that it’s just a comic, and maybe just meant to make a cute little statement about how everyone just wants to make a connection. Sure, and I think there’s something to be said for nerd guys shedding the whole Nice Guy complex and acting assertively. The problem is that there’s a fine line between that and the PUA viewpoint I described earlier. That woman next to you might not want to talk about her netbook. She might not be interested in you, specifically. She might not be interested in men, generally. She probably wouldn’t have the same reaction as in the strip, because society teaches women that they should expect male attention, and calling it out isn’t usually looked too kindly upon.
So this is the crux of the issue for me: nerds really are members of a subordinated masculinity, and from within that viewpoint it’s easy to dismiss anything which says that you are privileged and not downtrodden. Once you’re in that space, it’s really easy to start thinking in a certain way that says you’re not privileged just because you’re a man — and I think things like this XKCD strip can contribute to that way of thinking.
Of course, any man who falls farther from the pinnacle of hegemonic masculinity is less privileged than his more “masculine” counterparts, but he’s still a man. Nerd discourses sometimes let us forget that, and let us think we operate outside the system, because we’re not like those other, sexist guys — but it’s a fantasy. We can be better than that, but it means telling ourselves the truth, and not pretending that our interactions with women — even a simple conversation on a train — aren’t influenced and structured by the patriarchy.
*Note: I realize that I don’t mention queer nerds here. I don’t have a lot of experience with the topic, besides an understanding that nerd communities can be just as homophobic as more mainstream groups. Also, most of the discussions I’ve seen around nerd shyness have been in terms of male shyness towards women — summed up in the Nice Guy trope. I think this definitely speaks to the silencing of queer nerds in certain communities, but it also leads me to believe that this phenomenon is primarily an issue for a certain type of (self-identified) heterosexual masculinity.
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About his interests, Matt Kopas writes:
In a famous misattribution, Andre Malraux was held to ask “What is a man?” I feel like most of the answers to this question that men have available to them these days are at best outdated and at worst oppressive and restrictive. What does it really mean to be a man? How can men recognize their privilege and become better allies? As a first-year graduate student at the University of Washington, these are some of the questions I’m interested in. I blog about masculinity issues at The Disenchanted World, where I also talk about other topics such as sexuality, evolutionary theory, and really anything else that strikes me as sociologically interesting.
If you would like to write a post for Sociological Images, please see our Guidelines for Guest Bloggers.
Comments 201
KC — October 4, 2009
It seems a little more plausible to me that this is about nerds' tendency to latch onto women who aren't interested in them rather than women who would be. And perhaps assertiveness with men isn't normally expected of women, but really, talking about a cute guy on a blog is unusual? Isn't the whole point of blogs that you can express thoughts that might be a little outré?
pg — October 4, 2009
The comic seems to me to be about punishing women for not wanting to be hit on by strangers. It's a backlash to things like the "hollaback" sites, where women post pictures of men that harass them on subways and streets. It seems to be saying "See, if you resist being hit on by strangers, you're going to miss out on the nice cute boy who just wants to say hi - because now he's afraid of you." As if women can't differentiate between some perv masturbating at them on the subway and some guy just saying "nice laptop."
china — October 4, 2009
whoa, harsh guys. "The comic seems to me to be about punishing women"? "all women are yours for the taking."? where are you guys getting this? his idea of saying "hey, cute netbook" is not like assertive woman-grabbing or something. that's like...starting a conversation with another human being and not wanting to feel like a creep.
possiblyj — October 4, 2009
Why must we assume he's a nerd? Because this is XKCD? Because he starts a conversation about her laptop?
The only sociological message I see is one about gender expectations. The attraction is mutual, yet both parties assume that it's the male's duty to initiate an exchange.
Diana — October 4, 2009
I'm not a guy, but I can't think of a guy who would read this comic the way it's been explained here. I would think that it's more that a guy (or girl even) in that situation (with a crush they see daily but have never talked to) needs to realize that it's not that big a deal - the chance that the person is going to react in the extreme way that's imagined by the guy in this comic is tiny, and there's a chance the person might have been feeling the same way about you. It's not as if the girl is writing in her blog "I'd sleep with the boy sitting next to me on the train in a second if he just talked to me."
timeismine — October 4, 2009
Yeah, but see that is actually a bit creepish. Sure, a brief comment isn't that bad, but when a person is clearly involved with what she's doing, reading, writing on a laptop, listening to music, or whatever, it's rude to interrupt her.
You've assumed she will be receptive to your attention when evidence clearly indicates otherwise. Maybe the girl in the comic actually did want him to talk to her... but she didn't show it. It's on her to make a move in this case.
The only reason to feel like you should be able to interrupt this person is because you have assumed you have a right to her attention. Which you don't. But which is a supremely common assumption about women. Can't let a person read in peace? Check your privilege.
Patrick — October 4, 2009
Strangely, most of the people I know who really like XKCD are girls. They're also all part of the tech-immersed SF geek culture, which means they probably identify with the nerd archetype more than they might if I lived somewhere else. I think one of the reasons they may find XKCD appealing is that it represents a look into a featureless man with confidence and vulnerability, which on the surface (assuming a non-aggressive interpretation of 'featureless') is a pretty desirable thing all around. Unfortunately I think it should also be part of the standard package and something people are used to seeing but obviously that's not How It Works so when XKCD comes up I always end up all "Okay fine whatever I'll just shut up about it".
Also the Nice Guy stereotype is pretty awesome in the tacit assumption it makes that being a Nice Guy should be Enough, right? Because you're always complaining about how you can't find a guy who'll treat you nice. So here I am. I'm nice. I'm awkward, we have nothing in common, I can't hold a conversation on anything outside of my narrow field of interest, and my 10 year plan is to spend the next 3652 days idolizing you in the most disturbingly inhuman way possible, but I'm nice, okay? Nice. <-- That is what I am and that is what you said you wanted. You said it!
Marcus — October 4, 2009
It's obviously about anxiety engaging with people and fear of being rebuffed. What's ironic is that although his daydream is unrealistic, you make it come true by making the comic book artist out to be a creep and rebuffing him. Love your blog usually, but not everything is a slight against women.
mordicai — October 4, 2009
It bugged me too.
Steven — October 4, 2009
I think you have to take the whole of xkcd into account. The comic is partly self-reflective and self-effacing, poking fun at himself and nerd-dom in general. Given that, the comic came across more as a rueful retelling of what goes on in his mind every time he sits near someone he finds attractive.
That's not to discount your analysis, and I like how you used the comic as a launching point for discussion. I'm not sure it applies to this particular comic, though, unless you take it out of context of the whole series.
Leigh Woosey — October 4, 2009
Also the strip re-iterates the 'women really have all the power' idea that men sometimes have about relationships (anyone remember the scene in the girlfriend experience where the boyfriend is talking to his buddy in the bar?).
Also the guy seems to think the only reason for talking to the girl is to hit on her. Can't you just have a sincere conversation about laptops? Can't you do that with a guy? And why not?
If I was that guy I might feel just as hesitant about commenting about a laptop because sometimes I don't want anyone commenting on my appearance or property. Sometimes it might give me a big boost. But sometimes I'd be inclined to really brush off anyone who was talking to me. And, knowing that, I wouldn't want to intrude on someones space when they want to be left alone. It would make me feel bad. I think the best approach is to stop thinking of women as different. They're not, they're as same as any other person.
Kit — October 4, 2009
This is XKCD, which has done strips about the "Nice Guy" trope before (http://xkcd.com/513/), and which often takes the perspective of females (which are always shown as just as smart and capable as its males), and generally seems to me to have feminist leanings.
I just see two people too shy to make a connection (and I'm a feminist gal, for the record). I think it's a huge stretch to go from "Nice laptop" to that PUA garbage. Can we please not imagine that every time a guy tries to initiate a conversation with a girl he thinks is cute that he's trying to be a jerk? Or assumes that he "has a right to" her attention? Or any other patriarchal stuff? Maybe he's just a dude. Talking to a girl he thinks is cute. Finding out if she feels the same way. If she doesn't, he backs off. No harm done. If she does, hooray, they go on dates and have a lovely time.
I mean, if we start declaring all romantic initiations as patriarchal, it'll be a pretty lonely world for everyone. There has to be a line. Some things that guys do when chatting up women are indeed patriarchal and smothered in privilege. But as long as our society still insists that men make the first move, what can they do? They can't even ASK without being seen as Pick-Up Artists? Come on, let's not go too far here.
Patrick — October 4, 2009
As I said above, I really don't like XKCD, and I find the "aww, cute!" factor really tedious, but there are definitely far worse XKCD comics to criticize than this one, and sometimes XKCD does an okay job with things too.
Jesse — October 4, 2009
The problem is that there’s a fine line between that and the PUA viewpoint I described earlier. That woman next to you might not want to talk about her netbook. She might not be interested in you, specifically. She might not be interested in men, generally. She probably wouldn’t have the same reaction as in the strip, because society teaches women that they should expect male attention, and calling it out isn’t usually looked too kindly upon.
This is a hilarious "deep reading" of the comic. The thought bubble in the lower panel goes over exactly this ground, so it's not like the comic writer is unaware of these ideas. The only difference between the comic and the blog post is that the comic highlights how this thought process can prevent a connection between two people.
This is a fairly trivial point and it appears that Matt can make it controversial only by making ridiculous exaggerations -- the comic suddenly says that "given enough confidence and skills, all women are yours for the taking." Someone call the thought police, a crime is in progress!
srand — October 4, 2009
I had this exact discussion with my husband when the Penny-Arcade PUA thing was going on. I am very glad to read another male perspective on the matter.
One thing that struck me was how, although both my husband and I are self-identified nerds, my husband immediately fell into using the word 'nerd' to talk about male nerds exclusively. The discussion became 'us' (male nerds) vs. 'you' (women).
I asked several times where female nerds fit into this: his first answer was that they don't exist, his second that their experiences are completely different (which is why he said they don't exist in this context).
Unfortunately my husband shuts down completely when I try to talk about the concept of privilege, even in terms of my own privilege. But I really did get the feeling that his viewpoint of himself as a member of a subordinated group is impacting his ability to see himself as a privileged man.
Jesse — October 4, 2009
Once you’re in that space, it’s really easy to start thinking in a certain way that says you’re not privileged just because you’re a man — and I think things like this XKCD strip can contribute to that way of thinking.
Since there seems to be some interest in alarmist discourse about how WrongThink is VeryBad, I will point out that un-nuanced discussion about "privilege" that pretends that all men are equally privileged over all women undermines discussion about real privilege and inequality. It seems that small minds interested in Big Ideas can actually set back the liberal ideals that supposedly motivate interest in sociology.
Marcus — October 4, 2009
Funny how the assumption in this article seems to be that the woman on the train is not a nerd. Who's got the blinders on?
Caitlin — October 4, 2009
It bugged me a lot as well, and for the same reasons. It makes light of the harrassment women experience all the time on public transport, and conflates not welcoming "harmless/friendly" male attention (which is different from other unwelcome male attention because...you know you're a a nice guy and so should she, or something?) with being a paranoid, overreacting bitch.
She probably wouldn’t have the same reaction as in the strip, because society teaches women that they should expect male attention, and calling it out isn’t usually looked too kindly upon.
Exaclty. The writer of this strip does not get it at all.
Caitlin — October 4, 2009
I will point out that un-nuanced discussion about “privilege” that pretends that all men are equally privileged over all women undermines discussion about real privilege and inequality.
No. There are many intersecting forms of privilege which may affect the interaction between men and women (race, social class, ability/disability, and sexual orientation to name just a few) but all men have male privilege, and all women have none. That's not a lack of nuance, it's a fact. There is a system of privilege set up to benefit men in our society and no women have access to it. How other forms of privilege come together in the interaction will be different every time, and that's where the nuance is, but trying to deny the existence of male privilege doesn't get us anywhere.
oliviacw — October 4, 2009
One of the possible readings of the strip that I haven't seen mentioned - he really is interested in talking about her Netbook, but is worried that his comments would be mis-interpreted. Admittedly, "cute" instead of "cool" indicates more of a feminine perspective than a masculine, which he could adopting in order to "speak her language"...but that's not inconsistent with an interest in the netbook, instead being a possible indicator of positive social skills.
Jesse — October 4, 2009
Exactly Caitlin -- a poor black man has male privilege that, say, Hillary Clinton does not, and anyone who thinks this is not the most important thing in the world is "denying the existence of male privilege" and not getting us anywhere.
Carmen — October 4, 2009
This is fantastic. I've been kicking around similar ideas recently, relating to how this strip really bothered me, but have been unable to articulate what I was feeling. Thanks, Matt. Your blog is is my RSS feed. :)
R — October 4, 2009
I'm a bit surprised at the subtext of moral disapproval. What is the morally acceptable way to start interactions with strangers?
From my perspective, the problem with feelings of entitlement isn't really "I can start a conversion with people and expect a non-negative response."
Instead, it's, "I have a right to continue a conversation with anyone, even when they're displaying disinterest in continuing it."
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From my perspective, there are a series of morally relevant decisions that someone makes when starting an interaction.
1. Does this person's context and body language indicate that they could reasonably be interested in talking?
If I'm wearing headphones, and reading a book on a short-ish train ride, I'm telegraphing that I'm not terribly interested in conversation. If I'm quietly looking out the window, it's much more reasonable for someone to chat with me.
The attitude, "I'm not going to bother looking/Of course they'd want to talk to me" seems inappropriate.
2. Am I being courteous/honest in how I start a conversation?
People give lots of hints about their motivation. If the subtext is, "Hi, we're both in this situation and somewhat bored. You look interesting to talk to," then fine.
If someone tries to send off a deceptive subtext, or hide their motivations, then that's creepy.
3. Once I start a conversation, am I asking for the other person's time, or am I demanding it?
People's body language/tone often pretty clearly displays their level of interest. A disinterested person tends to turn away, or give very short, but polite answers. An interested person continues the conversation on their own.
If someone's talking to me, I really don't like being in a position where I explicitly have to tell them to go away. It seems rude, and shows a lack of self-awareness on the part of the other person.
And, my problem with much of the PUA advice that I've seen is that it gives bad advice on EACH of these issues.
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I'm not sure that the XKCD comic, in the context of XKCD as a whole, really raises any alarm flags for any of these.
Given that the target audience are shy, self-conscious males (and often ones who are somewhat conscious of gender issues) I don't think that there'll be many problems with entitlement on questions 2 and 3.
I suppose it could be read as, "Go talk to the girl, no matter what she's doing!"
But, given the last panel, it seems like the girl is explicitly interested in conversation as well, and presumably her body language would reflect this.
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But, all of this is based on my personal experience, I can see how other people's experiences might make them feel quite differently.
BeatrixComet — October 4, 2009
I thought that XKCD was playing off of the Verizon commercial for the HP mini netbook. In the commercial, a man sits next to a woman on a dock and quizzes her about her netbook, finishing her sentences before she has a chance to complete them.
I have spent a good 15 minutes looking for the commercial online to link here, but I was unsuccessful.
splack — October 4, 2009
Being a shy, nerdy, young woman myself, I often don't know how to deal with harassment. I think that's what the cartoon misses. Yes, it's hard to strike up a conversation with strangers, for anyone (male or female) who is shy. It can be harder to date, etc. But does the cartoon's shy, maybe socially awkward, author have to deal with getting felt up or shouted at in a sexually aggressive and threatening way by strangers, who are often physically bigger than himself, on top of his social anxiety? I know men sometimes have to deal with other men who want to get physically aggressive with them for no reason, and I'm sure that's harder for shy/nerdy men to deal with, but does it happen every day, while they're just trying to get to work? Do they fear that the harassment might lead to rape, or just getting punched?
As funny as some of the XKCD cartoons are, this one comes across as self-pitying, while dismissing the experiences of women who have to deal with harassment on a daily basis (and even scolding women who stand up to it).
katyhalo — October 4, 2009
Whether or not the characters' interaction is being framed as 'two people who ought to get over their shyness and talk to one another' or not, the fact remains that the male character's imagined scenario is shaming of women, and displaying a ridiculous stereotype that really is all too common among nerdy 'Nice Guys'- that women are vicious shrews who won't simply turn them down but totally eviscerate them for daring to breathe in their presence, which feeds back into the 'women are terrifying and strange' line from the Penny Arcade exchange (frankly it's no wonder someone with that attitude doesn't have a girlfriend). As Matt points out, the vast majority of women will either take unwanted attention/harassment passively or get out of the situation as quietly as possible, because that's how we're socially trained to behave. Don't cause a scene. I've been sexually harassed on public transport several times and I wish I (or any of my fellow passengers, for that matter) had had the courage to tell the guys to shove off.
I also find it incredibly creepy when Nice Guy sorts frame every single freaking interaction they could possibly have with women in terms of sex. If we're really that 'terrifying and strange' then maybe getting to know some women, as friends (and I mean genuine friends not, 'friends'-but-I'll-totally-try-and-sleep-with-you-later-on). Fact! Women are people too!
Sighter — October 4, 2009
As a gay nerd with a whole host of confidence problem when it comes to saying hello to cute boys, period, and a whole host of issues relating to body image and accepting myself for who I am, I empathize with the dude. I think interpreting his "hey, cute netbook," as assertive is a bit of a read; I see it as someone at last being confident and saying something. He's not commenting on her body, he's not trying to be rude, he's not trying to play the "women don't like nice guys" game. He's just trying to say that he likes her computer, and assuming that she like her computer too because she probably picked it.
But in his imagining, no one would ever like him, and would actually spurn him as creepy and insignificant. This is a struggle I have every day, thanks to, well, the Patriarchy that tells me I'm ugly for my size and worthless for my sexuality and probably not very cool because I like fantasy novels. So it's kinda sad to see Soc. Images turning my own struggle with myself into a comment on how my own imaginings of being able to speak to another human being and my fears of rejection is just me being a patriarchal dipshit egocentric phallocentric etc.
I mean, I can see your complaint. And I can see how a construction of women which makes "Nice Guy" think that all women are vicious shrews is problematic -- but that's also a construction that has been forced upon him by culture, not merely something that he did because he's a misogynist. Also, I understand how PUA culture isn't good, and all that. But I don't see anything in this strip which suggests the guy feels he is entitled to be liked or entitled to a conversation. He just feels the inadequacy that many people feels, because relating to other human beings is a big scary thing.
Maybe I'm missing something; maybe my homosexuality is blinding me to some male-female mystical interaction that I don't experience on a regular basis. But I feel for the guy, and his fears and his failures to understand how to interact with other human beings, and the way his own improperly constructed view of the world, a view forced on him by Patriarchy, causes him to think of this woman in a bad way. I don't see any cause within the context of the strip to get so angry about his motives, unless you're actively reading motives into the characters based on some symbolic context of which I am unaware.
What might be worth praising in the strip is that the woman has a fairly non-stereotypical female haircut, one I've seen on many a guy, gay or straight, and doesn't appear to be wearing a skirt. In the land of stick figure representations of gender, that's progress.
Sighter — October 4, 2009
I might add that a gay friend of mine showed me the strip a few days ago (I don't read XKCD) as an example of how he feels a lot of the time, and I saw it and laughed and said I felt that way too.
And then, a few days later, the strip is on Shakesville and tearing up the feminist blogosphere as an example of what's bad.
And I can't help but reflect that I might have agreed had not I had this prior positive interaction with the comic.
Just a little musing on the development of discourse, take it for what you will.
James — October 4, 2009
Matt will fit in well here; I don't think even the other bloggers have been so bold as to say that *anything a man says is sexist*.
I recommend you next discuss the immorality of privileged people continuing to eat, drink, and- worst of all!- breathe.
Lisa Wade, PhD — October 4, 2009
Hello all,
I knew this post would be provocative and I'm so glad to see such a lively discussion on Kopas' argument.
This is just a reminder to keep things civil. We hate to close commenting, but will do so if discussion devolves into name-calling.
-- SocImages
Ryan — October 4, 2009
I never thought of it that way either! I think it makes a valid point about "don't be a weenie and assume everyone is going to reject you", for any gender, but I guess it really could sound like "all you need to do is win her over" in a patriarchal world. How interesting.
Duff — October 4, 2009
Interesting analysis, Matt. I've been thinking along similar lines lately.
The subordinate beta geek is the target of most PUA marketing (in pick-up speak, the Average Frustrated Chump or AFC). The goal is a transformation from geek virgin into alpha male patriarch player. The subordinate male that does not consider issues of patriarchy is more likely to seek to become a dominant male. In psychological language, this is the move from victim to perpetrator, just a role shift in the drama triangle.
I wouldn't go as far as to say that the subordinate male is not aware of his privilege, for patriarchy oppresses both women and beta males. But the possibility of privilege is still there, which is actualized in the geek-to-alpha transformation sold by PUA gurus.
TH — October 4, 2009
"HEY, CUTE NETBOOK" was addressed to the computer, in the same way that you say "Hey, buddy!" to someone else's dog.
Wolfie E. Rawk — October 4, 2009
just to call you out, when you say "blindness" to privilege...that's showing some pretty intense able-bodied privilege right there...
Dear Male Geeks: A woman is not a Rubik’s cube that turns into a fleshlight when you win. « Restructure! — October 5, 2009
[...] cube that turns into a fleshlight when you win. October 5, 2009 — Restructure! Nerd Assertiveness and Blindness To Privilege (guest post) at Sociological Images (emphasis mine): Today’s XKCD strip bothers me, a little. It [...]
KD — October 5, 2009
The creepiest thing is this (very real) confusion expressed about sexual harassment and sexual interest that some male nerds have. They don't know the line between the two. What's more, they actually believe that sexual harassment (or attention, as they see it) is something that will be punished, and they turn it into a persecution complex. They think they're making a nice compliment when really they're talking publicly about how a woman's body looks in her clothing, all the while failing to realize that we CAN see their eyes glued to our breasts.
The message is clearly, "Oh, the world is so scary and dangerous since feminism made it so that men can be locked away forever for telling a girl she's pretty." The funniest thing about this strip is that anybody could think a woman could point to a man in public and say, "This man is a creep!" and have anyone listen and take her seriously. It shows a serious disconnect with reality. Maybe a real one for nerds, but not any less scary for that.
links for 2009-10-05 « Embololalia — October 5, 2009
[...] Guest Post: Nerd Assertiveness and Blindness to Privilege » Sociological Images Here’s my issue: I get that a lot of straight guys (and women, but I want to primarily talk about men here) who identify as nerds (or don’t, for that matter) have confidence issues, especially around romantic or sexual interests*. But I also think that messages like the XKCD strip really reinforce that idea of isolation and make the world out to be filled with potential mates — if only you’d just talk to them! There’s some truth here, in that it’s pretty hard to meet people if you find it hard to talk to communicate with others. But the more insidious, unintended message I’m seeing is one that just feeds into the PUA logic — given enough confidence and skills, all women are yours for the taking. (tags: gender men xkcd sexualharassment dating geek) [...]
Craig — October 5, 2009
"But the more insidious, unintended message I’m seeing is one that just feeds into the PUA logic — given enough confidence and skills, all women are yours for the taking."
This line strikes me as powerfully ironic.
The stick-figure protagonist is debating whether or not to strike up a _conversation_ with the laptop owner. By complimenting her _computer_. And your analysis jumps from there to "all women are yours for the taking," in exactly the kind of jaw-dropping over-reaction that the stick figure fears will ensue if he opens his mouth.
It wasn't an especially great comic in itself, but coupled with the analysis, it rises to another level entirely.
Do we really live in a world where saying "hello" to a stranger is tantamount to an act of assault? How strange.
Overreacting: AKA creating problems that don’t exist « Woman On Hold — October 5, 2009
[...] at Sociological Images feels that the strip gives nerdy men the idea that “given enough confidence and skills, all [...]
jeffliveshere — October 6, 2009
I have a love/hate relationship with XKCD, but I have to say: I'm tempted to think that this strip in particular might be elevated to "great art", at least in the sense that so many people seem to think they know exactly "what it means", even in the face of others who *know* that it means something else altogether. I'm amazed at the number of very different perspectives expressed here, inspired by the comic and the discussion of it.
I do feel inhibited as regards talking to women I don't know while on transit. I don't feel like I'm somehow being persecuted because of that inhibition, however. It's just The Way Things Are (Currently)--I've talked to so many women who have been harassed in myriad ways while on transit that it's just become a place where I keep to myself, mostly, unless somebody starts a conversation with me. Is that sad, for me? Sure. Is it isolating? Kind of. But it does make me want to speak out against patriarchy even more, because this is one (small?) way that patriarchy hurts us all. If there were fewer PUAs, this wouldn't be such a big deal. If there were less patriarchy, there would be fewer PUAs. So, is it a burden? Yes. And I don't want to dismiss it as not that big of a deal--to social isolation that men feel because of traditional masculinity is a huge problem--but it's not as if a train is the only way/place to meet people. (And transit has it's own particular intricacies, since, y'know, you can't just get up and leave.) So, yes, a burden, but no, not much of one.
And, just to drone on for a moment: Sometimes I think, "Hey, I might be missing out on a connection with somebody who is sitting there thinking I'm cute!" And that may be true. But then I think: I like to meet women who are conscious of the ways in which patriarchy hurts men, and if I sit next to a woman who understands that and she thinks I'm cute, she'll speak up. Naive, perhaps, but that's where I'm at in this moment.
Mary Alice — October 6, 2009
the only thing about privelege that matters in this case to me is that often I feel seriously scared in public. As a woman, I'm in "to-myself protection mode" if I'm ever in a subway. Especially if I'm going somewhere new and trying to stay focused on looking like I know what I'm doing. Please don't think a chick is a snob because she wants to be left alone on the bus/train, or that you have the right to invade her personal space when she makes it clear she's uncomfortable.
A linkspam standing on its hind legs (9th October, 2009) | Geek Feminism Blog — October 8, 2009
[...] the interpretation of the xkcd comic Creepy, and related issues about women and harassment, see Nerd Assertiveness and Blindness to Privilege at Sociological Images and Would It Kill You To Be Civil? at Shapely Prose. Shapely Prose has a [...]
swan — October 9, 2009
I don't know if this will get seen, buried down at the bottom of the comments, but here goes... I'm a female geek/nerd. I married young. I would love to have a fun conversation with a geeky guy on the train, but for some reason, guys don't seem to talk to women just to be friendly. There seems to always be a sexual subtext.
If a guy seems non-creepy, I'll say, I'm married, but I don't mind talking. 9 times out of 10, they go away. It saddens me. Especially when I'm traveling and some friendly companionship would be nice.
So for the most part, when I'm out in public, I try really hard to give out vibes that I don't want to talk to anyone. I read a book, I wear headphones, I stare out the window, I don't make eye contact with anyone, etc. I don't want my limited social energy (I'm an introvert) to be sucked up by people trying to pick me up, even if they aren't creepy.
Philos — October 14, 2009
I hadn't realized there was such a kerfuffle over this particular comic.
I thought the girl was looking at a different boy. A boy that she is facing.
Dan Ton — October 14, 2009
To extrapolate from an individual experience to a comment on any group belies only prejudice in the eyes of the commentator and throws the author down the very same well they seek to critique.
When meaning is the space between the text and the reader your stridency and pervasive world view so demonstrated show you leave little room for the authors intent and dominate with your own agenda.
In other words: Its a comic strip. Everyone can see that but you.
Dan Ton — October 16, 2009
Heavens to Betsy, being picked up on spelling by a yank!
Harshness is fine, try sharpening your claws first.
Folks like you make me remember (remind? concise use of language and all that) too clearly (too clearly? Can you remember 'too clearly'? Are you trumpeting lack of clarity? Excessive clarity as a defect? Maybe if you are a member of the Nixon Administration but otherwise? ) when I had to appear on Ph.D. panels.
Jog on Jeff, its time you let go.
A Rant « KEITH W. CUNNINGHAM — October 22, 2009
[...] trackback Those of you who follow me on Twitter will not that I had some things to say about this particular article. I felt I needed to go into a little more detail on why it bothered me so [...]
check out “street luv” « Wreckage Found Floating — November 3, 2009
[...] Writing (1) check out “street luv” November 3, 2009, 2:54 pm Filed under: feminism I love this list. I followed the street harassment blogfest with some interest, and I was predictably annoyed by the entitled whining from men who think women take the subway to get hit on, but I also happen to like chatting with strangers, and I wasn’t really bothered by the XKCD strip that kicked off the blogfest. [...]
Dan — December 11, 2009
Well i wouldn’t say that the male character in the comic is portrayed as rude or creepy. I say this mainly because the whole beginning of the comic is purely his hypothetical thoughts. he considered talking to the girl, but for fear of a negative reaction he doesn’t do anything. so in a way he is not being rude or creepy for he has done nothing really, he thought about it and decided he was more afraid of her than attracted to her. now the girl is thinking about the same situation at a different angle, but the over all irony of this comic is that the hard liner social tensions (be they patriarchal, be they feminist, be they the media!) have isolated and alienated both sexes to the point where nigher side is willing to attempt simple straight forward communication and discover the realization that they are not so different. the tragedy of the little comic is that both characters unknowingly share a common want, but neither will be able to discover such a thing.
And as far as the who hard liner approach to perceiving this hypothetical (but still probably true scenario), you can see the very demonstration of hard liner thinking in this forum alone, just read the previous posts. Everyone immediately drew battle lines and picked sides. you all immediately started looking for what was different about the two characters rather than what was the same which in itself as i see it the whole point behind this comic. They are not so different.
L. S. H. — July 14, 2014
Oh look, an article reinforcing why the nerd in the comic doesn't talk to women on the train.
This article is hilarious. The nerd worries about being viewed as a "Creep" and having it posted all over the net...missing the chance to meet someone. Article calls nerd a creeper because comic suggests he should try talking to someone...because he is a man and a nerd, and he might feel like asserting himself like a "Creep" because a comic suggests he not be so shy since some women might actually be interested. After all, how dare a person think that a lifetime of social ostracism, mockery, emotional/psychological/physical abuse, and so forth, think that they might not actually be privileged, and actual think they are worthy of having a relationship with a woman. Yes, how dare nerds think such things, the "Creeps."
In the words of Vegeta, I think I just had an aneurism from sheer stupidity. -_-
Anonymous — June 8, 2024
> Article calls nerd a creeper because comic suggests he should try talking to someone
No it doesn't. That is a ludicrous over-generalization that abstracts away all the particulars of the situation. Poor reading skills.