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	<title>Comments on: How Not to Venn Diagram</title>
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	<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/07/06/how-not-to-venn-diagram/</link>
	<description>Sociological Images encourages people to exercise and develop their sociological imaginations with discussions of compelling visuals that span the breadth of sociological inquiry.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Apr 2015 03:38:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Shawn Anderson</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/07/06/how-not-to-venn-diagram/comment-page-1/#comment-556235</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Shawn Anderson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jul 2012 13:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=49275#comment-556235</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s OK because Republicans don&#039;t understand Venn Diagrams]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s OK because Republicans don&#8217;t understand Venn Diagrams</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Brandon</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/07/06/how-not-to-venn-diagram/comment-page-1/#comment-556099</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brandon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jul 2012 18:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=49275#comment-556099</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Regardless of what you might know about Venn diagrams... doesn&#039;t it seem really, really odd to show a gap with an overlap of two things?  Isn&#039;t that the opposite of a gap, complete with insurance and safeguards that it won&#039;t be a gap?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regardless of what you might know about Venn diagrams&#8230; doesn&#8217;t it seem really, really odd to show a gap with an overlap of two things?  Isn&#8217;t that the opposite of a gap, complete with insurance and safeguards that it won&#8217;t be a gap?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Destinysweet3</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/07/06/how-not-to-venn-diagram/comment-page-1/#comment-556084</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Destinysweet3]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jul 2012 17:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=49275#comment-556084</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[ some patriotic human being trying to sabotage his campaign thereby saving america.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> some patriotic human being trying to sabotage his campaign thereby saving america.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Umlud</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/07/06/how-not-to-venn-diagram/comment-page-1/#comment-556032</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Umlud]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jul 2012 05:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=49275#comment-556032</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh, I&#039;m sorry. Did I write something that was too long for you? How about this for a shorter version, just for you:

Phenol is trying to rationalize away what is actually the case, and it&#039;s showing. Badly.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, I&#8217;m sorry. Did I write something that was too long for you? How about this for a shorter version, just for you:</p>
<p>Phenol is trying to rationalize away what is actually the case, and it&#8217;s showing. Badly.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Edward Stanaway</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/07/06/how-not-to-venn-diagram/comment-page-1/#comment-556000</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Edward Stanaway]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jul 2012 20:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=49275#comment-556000</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Since we&#039;re defining things, this reply is the definition of verbose.  It&#039;s also the definition of a personal attack, which is rather pathetic, as well as an ad hominem attack, attempting to attribute a character flaw or numerous character flaws towards individuals who have or may have an opposing viewpoint.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since we&#8217;re defining things, this reply is the definition of verbose.  It&#8217;s also the definition of a personal attack, which is rather pathetic, as well as an ad hominem attack, attempting to attribute a character flaw or numerous character flaws towards individuals who have or may have an opposing viewpoint.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Umlud</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/07/06/how-not-to-venn-diagram/comment-page-1/#comment-555991</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Umlud]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jul 2012 17:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=49275#comment-555991</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;d say that this one does it better:

http://upwr.me/MittFlip]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d say that this one does it better:</p>
<p><a href="http://upwr.me/MittFlip" rel="nofollow">http://upwr.me/MittFlip</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Umlud</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/07/06/how-not-to-venn-diagram/comment-page-1/#comment-555989</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Umlud]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jul 2012 17:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=49275#comment-555989</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The statement (and assumed logic) of Phenol&#039;s statement that these aren&#039;t Venn diagrams (I don&#039;t think that these were Ernest&#039;s statements, please correct me if I was wrong) above would indicate that:

A) EVERYTHING would have to be labeled to say what each and everything was. (E.g., &quot;This is a comment about Phenol&#039;s statement above, which MAY be a comment, but I don&#039;t actually know, because he never labeled it.&quot;) 

B) Phenol does not know what a Venn diagram implies. (You don&#039;t have to know what it&#039;s &lt;i&gt;called&lt;/i&gt;, but I&#039;m pretty sure that most of us learned what one means at some point during elementary or middle school. It&#039;s about as basic a concept as the hydrologic cycle.)

C) Phenol is a literalist that requires constant affirmation of an absolutist universe in which things are exactly what they are said to be. (IOW, Phenol wouldn&#039;t understand Stroudus&#039; evocation of &lt;i&gt;The Treachery of Images&lt;/i&gt; (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Treachery_of_Images )

OR

D) Phenol does know what a Venn diagram implies (even if he - for some reason - never knew what it was called), but he&#039;s finding rationalizations to get &quot;his side&quot; out of the very obvious hole that he (perhaps only subconsciously) realizes exists in this particular issue.

I&#039;m going to be generous to Phenol&#039;s intellect and say that it&#039;s D: he&#039;s trying to rationalize away something that he recognizes to be a problem but cannot actually admit to being a problem. (Or maybe he does admit to it being a problem, but is trying to find a way to lie about it, diminish its significance, or change the narrative so that he will feel vindicated.) Heck, rationalization the most common fault of human intellect, and it&#039;s one fault that tends to become more pervasive among people who are trained at rational thought.

Therefore, I doubt that Phenol&#039;s so moronic as to really believe that not labeling it as a Venn diagram means that it isn&#039;t (condition A). I also doubt that Phenol is so poorly learned that he has never encountered a Venn diagram, with or without it actually being called a &quot;Venn diagram&quot; (condition B). I finally doubt that Phenol requires a literalist affirmation of everything (condition C), since it is almost assuredly true that &quot;Phenol&quot; is merely a pseudonym.

&lt;i&gt;However&lt;/i&gt; now that Phenol has had the basic understanding of Venn diagrams explained to him, as well as the widespread knowledge of how a Venn diagram functions (and how the Romney diagrams are therefore Venn diagrams, regardless of the lack of a label), while also hopefully understanding that implicit knowledge is held by many more people than what might be lurking within his own cranium, one wonders whether Phenol will be able to reconcile himself to the fact that he&#039;s just trying to rationalize away a rather banal point about a multi-millionaire, privately educated, two-time Harvard graduate, former state governor, financially successful businessman candidate&#039;s election team&#039;s graphics department (as well as all the layers of management that had to approve of the graphics) being so poorly able to recognize incorrectly constructed Venn diagram as &lt;i&gt;BEING&lt;/i&gt; incorrectly constructed and yet going ahead with their launch.

It&#039;s not such a big problem. Romney&#039;s election team made a visual gaffe. Obama&#039;s team will likely also make a gaffe with their visuals. (Some say that they already did with their &quot;Life of Julia&quot; was such a gaffe.) Trying to get your mind to do the mental rationalization gymnastics that will turn this from a gaffe into not-a-gaffe just point the spotlight on your mental rationalization gymnastics.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The statement (and assumed logic) of Phenol&#8217;s statement that these aren&#8217;t Venn diagrams (I don&#8217;t think that these were Ernest&#8217;s statements, please correct me if I was wrong) above would indicate that:</p>
<p>A) EVERYTHING would have to be labeled to say what each and everything was. (E.g., &#8220;This is a comment about Phenol&#8217;s statement above, which MAY be a comment, but I don&#8217;t actually know, because he never labeled it.&#8221;) </p>
<p>B) Phenol does not know what a Venn diagram implies. (You don&#8217;t have to know what it&#8217;s <i>called</i>, but I&#8217;m pretty sure that most of us learned what one means at some point during elementary or middle school. It&#8217;s about as basic a concept as the hydrologic cycle.)</p>
<p>C) Phenol is a literalist that requires constant affirmation of an absolutist universe in which things are exactly what they are said to be. (IOW, Phenol wouldn&#8217;t understand Stroudus&#8217; evocation of <i>The Treachery of Images</i> (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Treachery_of_Images" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Treachery_of_Images</a> )</p>
<p>OR</p>
<p>D) Phenol does know what a Venn diagram implies (even if he &#8211; for some reason &#8211; never knew what it was called), but he&#8217;s finding rationalizations to get &#8220;his side&#8221; out of the very obvious hole that he (perhaps only subconsciously) realizes exists in this particular issue.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m going to be generous to Phenol&#8217;s intellect and say that it&#8217;s D: he&#8217;s trying to rationalize away something that he recognizes to be a problem but cannot actually admit to being a problem. (Or maybe he does admit to it being a problem, but is trying to find a way to lie about it, diminish its significance, or change the narrative so that he will feel vindicated.) Heck, rationalization the most common fault of human intellect, and it&#8217;s one fault that tends to become more pervasive among people who are trained at rational thought.</p>
<p>Therefore, I doubt that Phenol&#8217;s so moronic as to really believe that not labeling it as a Venn diagram means that it isn&#8217;t (condition A). I also doubt that Phenol is so poorly learned that he has never encountered a Venn diagram, with or without it actually being called a &#8220;Venn diagram&#8221; (condition B). I finally doubt that Phenol requires a literalist affirmation of everything (condition C), since it is almost assuredly true that &#8220;Phenol&#8221; is merely a pseudonym.</p>
<p><i>However</i> now that Phenol has had the basic understanding of Venn diagrams explained to him, as well as the widespread knowledge of how a Venn diagram functions (and how the Romney diagrams are therefore Venn diagrams, regardless of the lack of a label), while also hopefully understanding that implicit knowledge is held by many more people than what might be lurking within his own cranium, one wonders whether Phenol will be able to reconcile himself to the fact that he&#8217;s just trying to rationalize away a rather banal point about a multi-millionaire, privately educated, two-time Harvard graduate, former state governor, financially successful businessman candidate&#8217;s election team&#8217;s graphics department (as well as all the layers of management that had to approve of the graphics) being so poorly able to recognize incorrectly constructed Venn diagram as <i>BEING</i> incorrectly constructed and yet going ahead with their launch.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not such a big problem. Romney&#8217;s election team made a visual gaffe. Obama&#8217;s team will likely also make a gaffe with their visuals. (Some say that they already did with their &#8220;Life of Julia&#8221; was such a gaffe.) Trying to get your mind to do the mental rationalization gymnastics that will turn this from a gaffe into not-a-gaffe just point the spotlight on your mental rationalization gymnastics.</p>
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		<title>By: Japaniard</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/07/06/how-not-to-venn-diagram/comment-page-1/#comment-555987</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Japaniard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jul 2012 17:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=49275#comment-555987</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So one person made a mistake by being unable to accurately predict the length of the recession, due to Greece&#039;s unforseen default scares and multiple other global economic factors.

The other person failed to grasp a concept most middle schoolers have mastered, and even if he was never shown or even glanced at these before sending them out, he entrusts others who have failed to grasp basic concepts necessary to do their jobs with making important decisions with absolutely no oversight by himself or any other qualified individual.

Who do YOU think is more trustworthy in the role of the most powerful man in the world?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So one person made a mistake by being unable to accurately predict the length of the recession, due to Greece&#8217;s unforseen default scares and multiple other global economic factors.</p>
<p>The other person failed to grasp a concept most middle schoolers have mastered, and even if he was never shown or even glanced at these before sending them out, he entrusts others who have failed to grasp basic concepts necessary to do their jobs with making important decisions with absolutely no oversight by himself or any other qualified individual.</p>
<p>Who do YOU think is more trustworthy in the role of the most powerful man in the world?</p>
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		<title>By: Pshaffer</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/07/06/how-not-to-venn-diagram/comment-page-1/#comment-555967</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pshaffer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jul 2012 10:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=49275#comment-555967</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wow. How stupid (chortle, chortle). That guy Romney is really too stupid to be president if he can&#039;t even get Venn diagrams right. Oh, wait, it was some advertising guy? Romney didn&#039;t really design this. 
Hey, what about the other guy, Obama, who said that we would all save $2500 and instead it is costing us $2300? Can&#039;t hide behind an advertising guy for that one. And, that is costing me real money. So either he knew it was false, or didn&#039;t know enough about what he was selling to know it was wrong. Maybe that is the worse offense and the one that should really disqualify the candidate. 
Did no one else even notice this??]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow. How stupid (chortle, chortle). That guy Romney is really too stupid to be president if he can&#8217;t even get Venn diagrams right. Oh, wait, it was some advertising guy? Romney didn&#8217;t really design this. <br />
Hey, what about the other guy, Obama, who said that we would all save $2500 and instead it is costing us $2300? Can&#8217;t hide behind an advertising guy for that one. And, that is costing me real money. So either he knew it was false, or didn&#8217;t know enough about what he was selling to know it was wrong. Maybe that is the worse offense and the one that should really disqualify the candidate. <br />
Did no one else even notice this??</p>
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		<title>By: Stroudos</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/07/06/how-not-to-venn-diagram/comment-page-1/#comment-555943</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stroudos]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jul 2012 22:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=49275#comment-555943</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ceci n&#039;est pas un Venn.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ceci n&#8217;est pas un Venn.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: KitchenCookiesRock</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/07/06/how-not-to-venn-diagram/comment-page-1/#comment-555906</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[KitchenCookiesRock]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jul 2012 16:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=49275#comment-555906</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Agreed.  It may not be doing it correctly, but it&#039;s doing a damn fine job showing off what mitt wants to show off.

Isn&#039;t that the essence of politics?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed.  It may not be doing it correctly, but it&#8217;s doing a damn fine job showing off what mitt wants to show off.</p>
<p>Isn&#8217;t that the essence of politics?</p>
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		<title>By: Different Guest</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/07/06/how-not-to-venn-diagram/comment-page-1/#comment-555904</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Different Guest]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jul 2012 16:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=49275#comment-555904</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So you are saying that the red area is the set of all outcomes in the stated condition that are not a result of the stated promise, but the intersecting &quot;gap&quot; is a member of both the stated promise and the stated outcome? 

So, scrolling up to the final diagram, you are saying that $500 billion dollars in deficit spending is an &quot;outcome of his stated promise&quot; (which I can agree with), but the projected FY 2012 deficit of $1.2 trillion dollars is NOT an &quot;outcome of his stated promise&quot;? Sorry, I can&#039;t agree there. 

Both of those statements are outcomes of the president&#039;s actions and promises, and as such both should be within the blue circle, as opposed to this Venn diagram that shows that cutting the deficit in half and $500 billion dollars in deficit spending are somehow NOT mutually exclusive, while somehow the red and blue areas are mutually exclusive.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So you are saying that the red area is the set of all outcomes in the stated condition that are not a result of the stated promise, but the intersecting &#8220;gap&#8221; is a member of both the stated promise and the stated outcome? </p>
<p>So, scrolling up to the final diagram, you are saying that $500 billion dollars in deficit spending is an &#8220;outcome of his stated promise&#8221; (which I can agree with), but the projected FY 2012 deficit of $1.2 trillion dollars is NOT an &#8220;outcome of his stated promise&#8221;? Sorry, I can&#8217;t agree there. </p>
<p>Both of those statements are outcomes of the president&#8217;s actions and promises, and as such both should be within the blue circle, as opposed to this Venn diagram that shows that cutting the deficit in half and $500 billion dollars in deficit spending are somehow NOT mutually exclusive, while somehow the red and blue areas are mutually exclusive.</p>
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		<title>By: KitchenCookiesRock</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/07/06/how-not-to-venn-diagram/comment-page-1/#comment-555905</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[KitchenCookiesRock]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jul 2012 16:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=49275#comment-555905</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Can&#039;t say I agree with the politics, but it&#039;s pretty good advertising.  Sure, it&#039;s technically incorrect, but it gets the message across to his key demographics.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can&#8217;t say I agree with the politics, but it&#8217;s pretty good advertising.  Sure, it&#8217;s technically incorrect, but it gets the message across to his key demographics.</p>
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		<title>By: bamboo_princess</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/07/06/how-not-to-venn-diagram/comment-page-1/#comment-555903</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bamboo_princess]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jul 2012 16:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=49275#comment-555903</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I see your argument, and part of me wanted to agree but it just didn&#039;t sit right. I took a few minutes to consider why I couldn&#039;t agree and here&#039;s my take.  This visual may, in some small way, meet a loose definition of a Venn diagram, but it does not accurately represents the intent of a Venn diagram. 
The center of a Venn diagram is meant to compare aspects that coexist. The subject is A *and* B (A+B=AB). But this visual depicts a process of time. A *then* B (A+B=C) or in this case even A+C=B (because first you have promise then you have gap and *then* result. It&#039;s linear and inappropriate for a visual of this type. I would have to argue that a Venn diagram cannot, in a clear and useful way, represent events over the course of time and that makes these a Venn-Failure.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see your argument, and part of me wanted to agree but it just didn&#8217;t sit right. I took a few minutes to consider why I couldn&#8217;t agree and here&#8217;s my take.  This visual may, in some small way, meet a loose definition of a Venn diagram, but it does not accurately represents the intent of a Venn diagram. <br />
The center of a Venn diagram is meant to compare aspects that coexist. The subject is A *and* B (A+B=AB). But this visual depicts a process of time. A *then* B (A+B=C) or in this case even A+C=B (because first you have promise then you have gap and *then* result. It&#8217;s linear and inappropriate for a visual of this type. I would have to argue that a Venn diagram cannot, in a clear and useful way, represent events over the course of time and that makes these a Venn-Failure.</p>
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		<title>By: Political Irony &#8250; Venn Diagrams</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/07/06/how-not-to-venn-diagram/comment-page-1/#comment-555901</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Political Irony &#8250; Venn Diagrams]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jul 2012 16:16:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=49275#comment-555901</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Romney campaign draws some Venn Diagrams, proving that they don&#8217;t understand how Venn Diagrams [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Romney campaign draws some Venn Diagrams, proving that they don&#8217;t understand how Venn Diagrams [&#8230;]</p>
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