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	<title>Comments on: Absence of Women in U.S. Naval Academy Ritual</title>
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	<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/05/27/absence-of-women-in-u-s-naval-academy-ritual/</link>
	<description>Sociological Images encourages people to exercise and develop their sociological imaginations with discussions of compelling visuals that span the breadth of sociological inquiry.</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Pixietrack</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/05/27/absence-of-women-in-u-s-naval-academy-ritual/comment-page-1/#comment-565514</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pixietrack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2012 14:49:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=47545#comment-565514</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The reason for so few women participating in this event is due to the large crowd of Alumni who hail from the age of a military without women. Whenever a female midshipman makes it to the middle or upper tier of the climb up Herndon, these same old men chant &quot;Pull her down&quot; and her classmates do. Additionally, many women (and men) at the Naval Academy are Varsity Athletes and have a summer training block during this event which prevents them from participating. And really, as a Midshipman, the idea of spending the day after Sea Trials (a sixteen hour evolution) trying to climb a monument, getting kicked, punched, scratched, and ending up covered in lard that takes an hour to wash out of my hair is not appealing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The reason for so few women participating in this event is due to the large crowd of Alumni who hail from the age of a military without women. Whenever a female midshipman makes it to the middle or upper tier of the climb up Herndon, these same old men chant &#8220;Pull her down&#8221; and her classmates do. Additionally, many women (and men) at the Naval Academy are Varsity Athletes and have a summer training block during this event which prevents them from participating. And really, as a Midshipman, the idea of spending the day after Sea Trials (a sixteen hour evolution) trying to climb a monument, getting kicked, punched, scratched, and ending up covered in lard that takes an hour to wash out of my hair is not appealing.</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony Tantillo</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/05/27/absence-of-women-in-u-s-naval-academy-ritual/comment-page-1/#comment-553946</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anthony Tantillo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jun 2012 21:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=47545#comment-553946</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The fabled &quot;female gaze.&quot; ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The fabled &#8220;female gaze.&#8221; </p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: anon</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/05/27/absence-of-women-in-u-s-naval-academy-ritual/comment-page-1/#comment-553848</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[anon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jun 2012 02:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=47545#comment-553848</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Screwed up the image tags: 

http://static.flickr.com/89/233317394_02a04d1ce6.jpg

http://www.flickr.com/photos/porschephile/3057146669/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Screwed up the image tags: </p>
<p><a href="http://static.flickr.com/89/233317394_02a04d1ce6.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://static.flickr.com/89/233317394_02a04d1ce6.jpg</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/porschephile/3057146669/" rel="nofollow">http://www.flickr.com/photos/porschephile/3057146669/</a></p>
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		<title>By: anon</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/05/27/absence-of-women-in-u-s-naval-academy-ritual/comment-page-1/#comment-553847</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[anon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jun 2012 02:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=47545#comment-553847</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[ &lt;blockquote&gt;There are many pictures where female cheerleaders at the bottom are 
standing up. Mostly it&#039;s two or three women at the bottom holding up one
 or one and a half woman at the top.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yes, I agree.  I claimed that in most pyramids in cheer, you find &lt;i&gt;at least&lt;/i&gt; one of the conditions satisfied: (hands &amp; knees, 1 level high &lt;i&gt;or&lt;/i&gt; men on the bottom).  

When men are on the bottom, however, you find structures like &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.flickriver.com/photos/etsuarchives/popular-interesting/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt; (4:5), &lt;a&gt;this (3:3, since the guy in the back is spotting/stabilizing, not bearing weight) or &lt;/a&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.flickr.com/photos/porschephile/3057146669/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt; (I would say 3:5 with a bunch of other people stabilizing the knees; call it 5:5 to be conservative).  My only point is that the ratio of male cheerleaders required to female cheerleaders required reflects the differences, on average, between men and women.  When female cheerleaders make up the bottom level, you need more of them; the ratio is more like 2:1 or 3:1 than &lt;=1:1 for male cheerleaders.

As for the arguments others have made (such as they are; ad hominem is not an argument), Erin presented a factual claim about how human pyramids in cheerleading tend to be composed.  I replied to this with reference to a large public image database of photographs of human pyramids in cheerleading.

KatKDLM thinks that there are additional reasons that women are under-represented, which I have no trouble believing.  My only point is that the null hypothesis, in which male and female cadets are represented in the monument climb just in proportion to their strength (with no other causal effects) predicts that women would be under-represented relative to their proportion of the cadet population.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> <br />
<blockquote>There are many pictures where female cheerleaders at the bottom are<br />
standing up. Mostly it&#8217;s two or three women at the bottom holding up one<br />
 or one and a half woman at the top.</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes, I agree.  I claimed that in most pyramids in cheer, you find <i>at least</i> one of the conditions satisfied: (hands &amp; knees, 1 level high <i>or</i> men on the bottom).  </p>
<p>When men are on the bottom, however, you find structures like <a href="http://www.flickriver.com/photos/etsuarchives/popular-interesting/" rel="nofollow">this</a> (4:5), <a>this (3:3, since the guy in the back is spotting/stabilizing, not bearing weight) or </a><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/porschephile/3057146669/" rel="nofollow">this</a> (I would say 3:5 with a bunch of other people stabilizing the knees; call it 5:5 to be conservative).  My only point is that the ratio of male cheerleaders required to female cheerleaders required reflects the differences, on average, between men and women.  When female cheerleaders make up the bottom level, you need more of them; the ratio is more like 2:1 or 3:1 than &lt;=1:1 for male cheerleaders.</p>
<p>As for the arguments others have made (such as they are; ad hominem is not an argument), Erin presented a factual claim about how human pyramids in cheerleading tend to be composed.  I replied to this with reference to a large public image database of photographs of human pyramids in cheerleading.</p>
<p>KatKDLM thinks that there are additional reasons that women are under-represented, which I have no trouble believing.  My only point is that the null hypothesis, in which male and female cadets are represented in the monument climb just in proportion to their strength (with no other causal effects) predicts that women would be under-represented relative to their proportion of the cadet population.</p>
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		<title>By: Snark</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/05/27/absence-of-women-in-u-s-naval-academy-ritual/comment-page-1/#comment-553842</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Snark]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jun 2012 00:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=47545#comment-553842</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[ There are many pictures where female cheerleaders at the bottom are standing up. Mostly it&#039;s two or three women at the bottom holding up one or one and a half woman at the top. I don&#039;t understand why you insist on there not being a 2:1 ratio at the bottom because clearly this also applies here with the men. Are you expecting women to be stronger than men for Erin and KatKDLM&#039;s argument to be invalid?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> There are many pictures where female cheerleaders at the bottom are standing up. Mostly it&#8217;s two or three women at the bottom holding up one or one and a half woman at the top. I don&#8217;t understand why you insist on there not being a 2:1 ratio at the bottom because clearly this also applies here with the men. Are you expecting women to be stronger than men for Erin and KatKDLM&#8217;s argument to be invalid?</p>
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		<title>By: anon</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/05/27/absence-of-women-in-u-s-naval-academy-ritual/comment-page-1/#comment-553758</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[anon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2012 23:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=47545#comment-553758</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh no, I agree with you.  USNA cadets are in very strong shape, on the whole.  Elsewhere I suggested that they were in the top 1% of the fitness distributions for 18 yr old men and women (or males and females, if you like?).  I only mean by that they they are unlikely to have any specific training in gymnastics or acrobatics.

Are you suggesting that college cheerleaders aren&#039;t trained?  I&#039;m not sure I understand what you mean there.

PS.  I think you mean &quot;conflating&quot;, but would you prefer I exchange &quot;male&quot; for men and &quot;female&quot; for women respectively? ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh no, I agree with you.  USNA cadets are in very strong shape, on the whole.  Elsewhere I suggested that they were in the top 1% of the fitness distributions for 18 yr old men and women (or males and females, if you like?).  I only mean by that they they are unlikely to have any specific training in gymnastics or acrobatics.</p>
<p>Are you suggesting that college cheerleaders aren&#8217;t trained?  I&#8217;m not sure I understand what you mean there.</p>
<p>PS.  I think you mean &#8220;conflating&#8221;, but would you prefer I exchange &#8220;male&#8221; for men and &#8220;female&#8221; for women respectively? </p>
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		<title>By: anon</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/05/27/absence-of-women-in-u-s-naval-academy-ritual/comment-page-1/#comment-553757</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[anon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2012 23:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=47545#comment-553757</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;addressing it to someone else&lt;/blockquote&gt;

who was replying to me about said issue, but whatever.    If you would like to save a bit of face at the expense of doing violence to common-sense Gricean implicature, it&#039;s no skin off my nose.

I will assume by your silence on the more substantive point that you acknowledge your error in claiming that the populations of men and women are of equal anaerobic strength, pound for pound, and feel a bit sheepish about your comment re: &quot;grasp[ing] the concept of a ratio.&quot;

]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>addressing it to someone else</p></blockquote>
<p>who was replying to me about said issue, but whatever.    If you would like to save a bit of face at the expense of doing violence to common-sense Gricean implicature, it&#8217;s no skin off my nose.</p>
<p>I will assume by your silence on the more substantive point that you acknowledge your error in claiming that the populations of men and women are of equal anaerobic strength, pound for pound, and feel a bit sheepish about your comment re: &#8220;grasp[ing] the concept of a ratio.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: anon</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/05/27/absence-of-women-in-u-s-naval-academy-ritual/comment-page-1/#comment-553756</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[anon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2012 23:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=47545#comment-553756</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That&#039;s fine: you don&#039;t have to respond.  But if you&#039;re going to respond at all, you might as well respond seriously, i.e. by actually addressing the argument that I laid out.  If you won&#039;t be serious, then go back to gardening if you want.  But telling me to &quot;shut my trap&quot; just degrades you.

PS: If the posts are long, it&#039;s because I am astonished to see how much resistance there is to acknowledging basic physiological differences between men and women (as groups), so I want to be precise in setting forth what I am and am not claiming.  Sorry I made careful claims on y&#039;alls social science blog.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s fine: you don&#8217;t have to respond.  But if you&#8217;re going to respond at all, you might as well respond seriously, i.e. by actually addressing the argument that I laid out.  If you won&#8217;t be serious, then go back to gardening if you want.  But telling me to &#8220;shut my trap&#8221; just degrades you.</p>
<p>PS: If the posts are long, it&#8217;s because I am astonished to see how much resistance there is to acknowledging basic physiological differences between men and women (as groups), so I want to be precise in setting forth what I am and am not claiming.  Sorry I made careful claims on y&#8217;alls social science blog.</p>
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		<title>By: anon</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/05/27/absence-of-women-in-u-s-naval-academy-ritual/comment-page-1/#comment-553755</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[anon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2012 23:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=47545#comment-553755</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Do you have a serious criticism of my highly controversial claims that women make up about 20% of USNA, or that men tend to have more upper body strength than women?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do you have a serious criticism of my highly controversial claims that women make up about 20% of USNA, or that men tend to have more upper body strength than women?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Dianne</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/05/27/absence-of-women-in-u-s-naval-academy-ritual/comment-page-1/#comment-553748</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dianne]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2012 19:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=47545#comment-553748</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Or better yet, why dont we just look at the demographics of the class in the picture:
http://www.usna.edu/Admissions/USNA%202015%20Class%20Portrait.pdf

from the USNA admissions page 2015 class profile:
19% female
64%-white
11%- Hispanic
13% Asian
10% African American
6% - first in family to attend college
11% - First generation American
18% - Primary language at home other than english
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Or better yet, why dont we just look at the demographics of the class in the picture:<br />
<a href="http://www.usna.edu/Admissions/USNA%202015%20Class%20Portrait.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.usna.edu/Admissions/USNA%202015%20Class%20Portrait.pdf</a></p>
<p>from the USNA admissions page 2015 class profile:<br />
19% female<br />
64%-white<br />
11%- Hispanic<br />
13% Asian<br />
10% African American<br />
6% &#8211; first in family to attend college<br />
11% &#8211; First generation American<br />
18% &#8211; Primary language at home other than english</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/05/27/absence-of-women-in-u-s-naval-academy-ritual/comment-page-1/#comment-553747</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2012 19:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=47545#comment-553747</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[All statistical analysis of the general population requires construing gender with sex, because that is the only data set available, and providing statistical data about the population as a whole is the only objective evidence that anyone could possible present.

What exactly could anon have done any differently?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All statistical analysis of the general population requires construing gender with sex, because that is the only data set available, and providing statistical data about the population as a whole is the only objective evidence that anyone could possible present.</p>
<p>What exactly could anon have done any differently?</p>
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		<title>By: Japaniard</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/05/27/absence-of-women-in-u-s-naval-academy-ritual/comment-page-1/#comment-553746</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Japaniard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2012 19:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=47545#comment-553746</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[How do you get resolution without desegregation? I know it sounds like a chicken/egg problem, but forced desegregation seems to have prompted significant progress for the Jim Crow south. It wasn&#039;t without its drawbacks, of course, but that is much more preferable to stagnation caused by continued desegregation.

Returning to gender issues for a moment, what are the drawbacks to mixed gendered dorms? Nobody is endangered in this situation, so claiming it make the students feels safer is pointless, because they aren&#039;t.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How do you get resolution without desegregation? I know it sounds like a chicken/egg problem, but forced desegregation seems to have prompted significant progress for the Jim Crow south. It wasn&#8217;t without its drawbacks, of course, but that is much more preferable to stagnation caused by continued desegregation.</p>
<p>Returning to gender issues for a moment, what are the drawbacks to mixed gendered dorms? Nobody is endangered in this situation, so claiming it make the students feels safer is pointless, because they aren&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Bethany78</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/05/27/absence-of-women-in-u-s-naval-academy-ritual/comment-page-1/#comment-553737</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bethany78]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2012 16:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=47545#comment-553737</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[i don&#039;t know if i should be amused or not about why female students weren&#039;t allowed to participate: on the one hand, the school was probably buying into the &quot;pre-pregnant&quot; drivel, but on the other hand, they might just have been making the joke that male engineers are never gonna get laid...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i don&#8217;t know if i should be amused or not about why female students weren&#8217;t allowed to participate: on the one hand, the school was probably buying into the &#8220;pre-pregnant&#8221; drivel, but on the other hand, they might just have been making the joke that male engineers are never gonna get laid&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Kiki</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/05/27/absence-of-women-in-u-s-naval-academy-ritual/comment-page-1/#comment-553736</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kiki]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2012 15:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=47545#comment-553736</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[yes, but until relations between those groups can be resolved, forcing integration would probably only endanger more people, and really wouldn&#039;t help. the resolution would have to come first, and the desegregation after.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yes, but until relations between those groups can be resolved, forcing integration would probably only endanger more people, and really wouldn&#8217;t help. the resolution would have to come first, and the desegregation after.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Kiki</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/05/27/absence-of-women-in-u-s-naval-academy-ritual/comment-page-1/#comment-553734</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kiki]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2012 15:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=47545#comment-553734</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[*on the highschool level]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>*on the highschool level</p>
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