It's really interesting to compare this to my own experiences growing up as a person of Italian and French Canadian descent in Canada, where (in my lifetime at least) the dominant discourse has been of multiculturalism.  So while I get the "You don't look Italian, you're so... blonde!" and the people talking about 'frogs' when they don't know I am one, there's also this pressure to have a connection with my ancestry that I don't actually feel.   I'm not French Canadian, although my mother is, and I'm not Italian-Canadian, although my father is.  But there are so many very well-meaning people who hear my name and assume I must be from Little Italy (someone once told me I have very good English for an exchange student). 

My undergraduate degree is in Canadian history, and I especially felt it then.  I actually had a professor emeritus ask me when he learned my name--after twenty minutes of conversation, mind you!--"Why on earth are you studying Canadian history?! There's an amazing Italian Renaissance program--are you not proud of what your people has accomplished???" 

So we have our cultural mosaic, and you're supposed to stay on your own little piece of that mosaic, and woe betide you if you decide you want to just be Canadian. 

Thank you for sharing that "Not Quite White: Arabs, Slavs, and the Contours Of Contested Whiteness" video. I found it interesting and informative.

As a result of watching excerpts of Jamil Khoury's entire play WASP, I'm curious to see that entire play. However, I'm not fond of the angry People of Color roles because I thought that they were stereotypical and might create an impression that the norm is for People of Color whose skin color is non-white to feel or express anger toward people (including some People of Color) who "look White" or who "are White". Furthermore, I wonder if Jamil Khoury included one or more roles in his play of "angry White people".

I have one other reservation about the play and the video: I would have liked for the producers of that video & play to note that there are also many Arab people who don't "look White". Although there were some representatives of what Americans consider "Arab-looking people" in that video and play, I wonder if the impression of the narrative was that most Arab people who immigrated to the USA had skin the color of White people (which is admittedly a wide range of skin colors). 

Not only are there some "brown" Arabs with naturally straight hair, but there are also some Arabs whose skin color & hair texture are the same as those people who are generally thought to be "Black" (though admittedly the skin colors and hair textures for African American Black people and other Black people also cover a very wide range).

Attitudes and acts of racism toward fellow "Arabs" who are darker in complexion are real, as documented during the Arab Spring uprising in Libya, North Africa. And, like Latinos, I believe that it's likely that there are people with different skin colors within the same "Arab" families. I think it would be interesting to see issues of colorism and racism  explored in plays and videos produced by "Arabs".

Note: Throught this comment, I've put "Arabs" in parenthesis because I thought that that referent was frowned upon by that population. Is that true and if so, what general referent is preferred?

This fascinates me. I'm a Polish American who lived in Northwest Indiana in my childhood. I recently did a small bit describing my own experiences with racial attitudes while growing up, and I used EXACTLY the phrase "note quite white," to describe myself and my father.

On my mother's side, I am Hispanic; my great-grandfather immigrated when my grandmother was a little girl. My family was very assimilationist, and between that and the fact that in appearance I look very much like my father (a White American of Scottish/English descent) I have had a very similar racial experience. I am under the impression that Hispanic immigrants fought a similar battle to be classified as 'white' although I am unfamiliar with the history of it. The documentary did make me mildly uncomfortable, if only because it implies that the experience of a mostly assimilated white-appearing member of an ethnic group resembles that of darker skinned POCs simply because of heritage. I think it's important to remember family history, and that as a nation our emphasis should be on inclusion rather than on assimilation, but I personally have always felt like a fraud when trying to learn about "my culture." My experience just isn't the experience of most other Hispanic Americans, and trying to claim that it is seems to make light of the struggles that POCs continue to face. 

I think it's unfair to claim that there was never any racism in Arabic culture. Of course in every culture there are various trends and various people, but I think that saying that there was no racism at all is too much.

This is absurd - not even hitler thought of slavs as nonwhite;

They clearly were not ASPs but thats different; thats why there was a term WASP in the first place; if Slavs were not white you would not need the ASP;

Of course, some Slavs actually were protestant even before there were any WASPs; the Reformation hit a ferrile ground in eg Poland before Henry VIII ever thought of leaving the Church.

Indeed some Slavs were actually Slavicized Germans, Scots, Frenchmen, etc. in turn some of those Germans had earlier been Slavs who were Germanized over the centuries; physically many Germans are a lot closer to Slavs than to many Frenchmen who tend to have more angular features, longer noses, darker hair, etc.
Given that the so called WASPs have British, ie, Celtic, as well as AS as well as Viking as well as French genes, the AS part may be quite small in any of them;

None of this is black or white so to say;
The Irish were also not "quite white" in the same sense;

As for Arabs, they are mostly Semitic so not European and therefore not white strictly speaking. But Syrians are not all Arabs - similarly look at the folks in Afghanistan - geographically they are far away from Europe but many of them look far more European than Persians or Arabs or Berbers - partly a result of migrations from ukraine and caucausus. same btw for portions of India - though there a different climate meant a darker skin on people who otherwise could have passed as Greeks or Italians; for that matter, Romans had ruled Africa long before Arabs and then you the Vandal invasions so by the time Arabs got there there was already a diverse mix of people living in the area;
Or take the turks - originally mongoloid people but look at them now in turkey and you will see basically byzantines; the invaders came and converted the locals and intermarried such that their gene pool was diluted to the point where you will be har d pressed today to find a Turk with the mongoloid fold (i.e., "slanted" eyes);

Finally, as for anti-black racism it is hardly a function of wanting to be associated with "whites" rather it is a global phenomenon - you can just as easily construct a story about Jews and their views about the "Schwartze"

What many people gloss over, is who the real Arabs are. The reason most Westerners preceive Arabs as brown is because they are. The real Arabs are from Arabia while the rest of the Arab world are simly Arabized people. The Syrian immigrants who came to the US were not real Arabs, but most likely Arabized slavs and other people who really were white in the European sense. Which is the reason they were classified as white. What is dysfunctional is how this resulted in the real Arabs being classified as white also. The presence of Arabized Europeans is always glossed over. They get passed as white-skinned Arabs. 

Arabs were never white and they never have been a pale-skinned race of people. And people need to stop with this "Arab is not a race" thing because it is. There is no need to surpress the real ethnic Arabs simply because so many people have been Arabized. a.k.a. fake Arabs. A lot of people don't know their history including many "Arabs."

Slavic and Latin/Hispanic are NOT white though they are Caucasian. Their physical features are more like Arabic (middle eastern and north african).
Skin tone, ugly norse, wide face, eyes.

As long as you will promise to maintain white privilege, we will award you (near) white status.

e.g.- "when does a Mexican become a Spaniard? When he's dating your daughter."

Arabs chose a good company: majority of Slavs are nordic Europeans.Poles,for instance has similar genes to Swedes.Arabs should reform their medieval religion and should not play the racial card.

very interesting article!

A Alexander incorrect , slavs do not have similar genetics to western Europeans!
Maxine slave tan angles do not .
They get quite dark especially in summer as do Greeks and Sicilians. They still have a good bit of Mongolian in them, that's what makes a slav

Slavs are deformed not white as much as they would sell their own 1st born child to become white. Slavs are a mix of Mongolian Arabs North Africans Indian oersoans turks kayaks kayaks South American pygmy genes in them . In 2018 when a horse of Eastern European slav mordor arrived in western civilisation like u.k England and Britain in their peasant diseased inbred milillions and millions the real alpha white a.k.a the British engkish white race totally rejected them after having them in their homes and society and voted overwhelmingly to get them out and keep them out and deport them enmasse via brexit Slavs are deformed not white and not even western European or especially British engkish Anglo saxons.they are Eastern in every sense. Alot of them in order to stay illegally and sneakily in u.k and not get attacked by the large anti slav violence that is present against slavs all slavs women children old young have changed their names to english British anglicised names pathetic these slav wretches are....

BS, Poles are Slavs and are the whitest people on Earth. Actually examine how lived experiences play out in America today and you’ll see European Slavs can face xenophobia but not racism in the US. Grasping at shit from decades ago to validate your oppression complex won’t fly.

And to some of the commentators above, GL finding solidarity with POC with your “I’m not White, I’m Spanish/Greek/Italian!” Lines. You’re considered part of the “coloniser” class! And having “Mediterranean” features doesn’t make you non-white, much in the same way Thais being on average darker than the average Northern Chinese person doesn’t make them non-Asian.

Grow the fuck up. You are not opposed in the same way actual POC are.

Reply to Xie - so you think that stuff that happened decades ago doesn't matter today? I bet you wouldn't say that to an African American...
You need to actually read a lot more about genetics and ancient history to understand who are Slavs and their origins. They are not "white" as per the standard definition of "white" coined by the English. And yes, we Slavs in America experience prejudice and xenophobia on a daily basis, most prominently in American pop culture. However, ask yourself the last time you saw Slavic culture incorporated in American culture, like how British, French, German, Latin and Black cultures are. You don't because Slavs and Slavic heritage has never been included the melting pot of "American culture" outside of the few areas that have high population of Slavs (NYC, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Philly etc).
Xie, you have no clue what you're talking about. Read genetic studies about Slavs, and then read about the mass immigration plus generational trauma. Shove you ignorance about what you think "white" means up where the sun doesn't shine!
You really think every Euro ethnicity is treated the same as Anglo-Saxon Brits - hahaha you're an idiot!

Xie - also, you're saying Americans of Spanish heritage are not opposed? Do you not know anything about American history? The Latin American people are descendants of Spanish and Indigenous Americans! They DO face racism daily. Just because you're Chinese does NOT give you the right to minimize and degrade other cultures.
Ghengis Khan invaded Europe and raped and killed millions across Eurasia so you must think you're elite over Europeans. But you're not.
You have no right and no knowledge of anything Latin American/Hispanic people go through. You are a racist! How dare you try to degrade Latin cultures and their experiences!

CRT affected 20th century immigrant groups (Italians, Jewish, Slavs etc) as well, though affected Africans the most and the longest. You need to read about 20th century immigration and US laws that literally kept wealth and opportunities away from people, and yes, there were European immigrants that were considered 2nd or 3rd class, most prominently Italians, Jews, and Slavs. They were kept from work, from ability to own property, from ability to attain loans/mortgages, not as extreme as Africans and Asians, but still were withheld due to their ethnicities. The lack of access to wealth compounded over time through generations, and this prejudice and inequity is all based upon historical and genetic facts that Southern and Eastern Europeans are "not as white" as say north-western Europeans. This compounded too with world issues of the time (Mussolini, Red Scare/Iron curtain, etc) where these groups experienced prejudices and discrimination because of their ethnic ties to the things that WASP Americans deemed as "scary". It's also why so many marginalized European groups abandoned their cultures to assimilate into white bread WASP America.
I dont know who this Xie guy is, but he doesn't know about 19th/20th century American history or about the mass immigrations and what those groups endured. He also doesn't understand how being withheld from opportunity/wealth compounds over generations making it harder even later when things can become accessible. Ever wonder why the richest and most powerful in the US typically have very WASP surnames as opposed to Southern or Eastern European surnames? This is why. If Xie is Chinese, I would hope they'd understand this basic concept of CRT and systemic and classist control in the US, as well as general world history, but I guess not?
This isn't to say that Africans, Asians, and Latinos haven't had it worse - because they have especially Africans. But to acknowledge that one shouldn't discount and wipe away the experiences of other marginalized groups.
Genetically and historically, Southern and Eastern Europeans are more linked to Asia and North Africa than Northern and Western Europeans - it's just basic facts. And a quick study of 20th century immigration to the US should clearly make one aware to the inequities experienced by these groups. A review of generational trauma and how lack of wealth compounds through generations should be easily understood. Yes, Africans have had it the most and the worst, but that doesn't negate the experiences and facts of other groups.

Reading this shit about white, near white, not quite white, and the ones with fuck all white in them makes me say... actually it sounds like there is the urge to save something that was meant to die with its conception. (The WASP ), and it is based on a misconception of race.
Our Race started with the Origen of Life and that being the truth we need to look around ourselves and see and seak similarities between ourselves, for nature and our zone of habitat is shaping us.
Slavic people are most numerous in Europe and are the ones who imported the problem of "white".( lack of pigmentation in the skin, eyes, hair, and ... not only the whiteness)
To be "White" could be read as; We better protect ourselves for the "natura" didn't prepare us for the harshness of places we wander into" and the history isn't teaching anything good.
Regardless of our appearance (no meta what color, or shade off), we wear bead basterds,( all of the history ) with exception of (worth mentioning) Medieval Islamic Spain, the GOLDEN AGE OF SPAIN. (Destroid by the wild hoards from North.)
We should study more about moments of history where "the good" was at the forefront of humanity. In recent history "the Bad" was prosperous.
Where are we going...?

That's it. Slavs are WHITE!. They are from Europe so that means they are white. ALL EUROPEANS ARE WHITE! Arabs are NOT white because they are from ASIA!. Russians are a different story, they come in separate ethnic groups so it depends on what you pass as Russian.

Xie- You are extremely uninformed about the history and origins of the relatives and descendants of the Italian-American immigrants. I don't blame you though because you though because this history is not widely taught in schools across the US. Italy was unified as a country bringing together diverse people and ethnic groups in 1871. The "Italian" immigrants that came to the US came from Sicily & Southern Italy fleeing starvation, extreme poverty & oppression and colonization from Northern Italian wealthy land owners. It was a new country, so many still identify with their region that had a different culture. Truly extreme oppression, I really encourage you to read about it. Sicily is among the most colonized places on this planet due to the strategic location in the middle of the Mediterranean, close to N Africa and on a trade route between continents. They were colonized by a plethora of civilizations, including many who would be considered by current Americans in 2022 non-white". The standard for White in the US has been those with political and cultural power from N Europe (England etc) that are White Anglo Saxon Protestants. Genetically and culturally Sicilians as Mediterranean people more akin to Greek, Spanish, Lebanese etc would be considered "mixed race/ethnic people by 2021 modern day ethnic lenses. I think the point is they came to be considered "white" in 2022, but many would tell you not quite! Similar to Jews, they faced historical discrimination in the US including being subject to Jim Crow laws, and housing discrimination although not as severe as Black Americans. Have we had a Sicilian American president? They have risen to power in the US in places like NY (Governor Cuomo) where they are more numerous, similar to Latinos. Sicily is closer to Tunisia, than to Rome. Sicilians are darker than Northern Italians, their ancestry reflecting a mixed heritage of peoples passing through the island. They faced intense discrimination by Northern Italians during and after unification of the country in their homeland. The Arabs, Greeks, the Moors, the Normans and the Romans were among these peoples whose presence helped to create what we now think of as Sicilian culture.

Xie- My grandparents came to the US in 1918 during WWI and the last Pandemic. My paternal G grandmother was a widow who came with 4 children, and was completely illiterate in her native Italian. She had little to no access to any school. This was common during this time due to the extreme poverty, & oppression they faced. They came by ship facing extreme hardship and it was a long journey. Their boat was hit by a missile as it was during WWI and came in on its side. My grandparents in the US obtained an 8th grade education. My grandmother in the 8th grade at age 13 had to drop out of school to work in a factory with deplorable sweatshop conditions to support her family. This was before modern US laws to prohibit these terrible conditions were created. This was the reality in the US for many Italian-American immigrants in the 20's and 30's. There was no ESL available, or programs in the schools. But they could enter working class jobs and rented. My parents were first to graduate high school and buy a home, which they had to buy very far away from their jobs to afford. I am the first in my family to be able to go to college and started at community college. You really need to understand much more deeply before you comment.

Maria, There was no emigration in 1918 The Spanish flu was raging and killing 50 million people worldwide not to mention the war. Also, doubtful a boat could be hit by a missile then as they would not be invented for another quarter of a century. Maybe you meant torpedo?

Remember that Polish peasants also we're treated like slaves and got their freedom only a little bit earlier then African Slaves( didn't change their situation much anyways). So telling any Pole he should sympathize with African struggle is acceptable but only if Africans will sympathize with Polish and Slavic struggle. Do you know that many millions of Russians and Poles and Ukrainians (general Slavic people) died in GERMAN death camps?

Slavs are not culturally Western, but they ARE racially white. They are from Europe, speak an Indo-European language, have white skin and are within the same gene pool as all other Europeans with the exception of some Russians. Arabs do not fit in any of these categories, so no they are not white.
Slavs were not the only Europeans who faced discrimination, but so did the Irish. At one point even the Irish had racial theories set against them by WASP propaganda. But obviously nobody today will question the Irish people's whiteness. How far are you willing to narrow down the white race? Only WASP people are white again?? Come on now...

sounds like a lot of yall forget that the continent of asia runs through russia too. i was adopted from kemrovo. there's a heavy population of slav-asian people. and althoug SOME of them may have white in thier blood (i doubt it) there is at least 75% of those people who aren't white.

When I read some of the ignorance that appears on some of these posts, it would be funny if not so pathetic.
The Slavs are of the Indo-European tribe 3500 BC. This is true of every other ethnicity in Europe, as well as Iran, Afghanistan, and India.
The only European exceptions are the Hungarians, Finns, and Estonians. I don't want to go down an ethnic rabbit hole.
Nazi race theory is based on flawed myth, not science. There really are Aryans. They're called Iranians. Iran means "Land of the Aryans".
Stupid Nazis.
The truth is anthropologically speaking, the Germans and the Slavs are closer than any other ethnicity in Europe.
They even shared the same gods.

Arabs are POC Europeans aren’t simple really

The WASP culture stereotype the slavs as darker people, even the US media and hollywood usually use darker people to play slavs or Russians.

Slavs might be white skinned but they do not fall in the white section in USA for the simple reason that they did not colonize, but were colonized themself.
I mean the term Slave comes from the fact that Slavs were enslaved so much by others (Byzantium, Ottomans, Mongols, Vikings) aswell as a they were treated as bottom class in Austrian, Mongol, German and Ottoman empires that ruled over them during large parts of history.

Whoa, I couldn't believe the amount of BS I've read here. I'm slavic, and I'm proud that I come from a country that never colonised anyone, and never profited from it. Now "dear" brits, germans, dutch,french you deal with the consequences of your past ;) I hope you'll all die in pain. allahu akbar