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	<title>Comments on: Church Saves Marriage&#8230; and Produces Curious Coefficients</title>
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	<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/12/15/church-saves-marriage-and-produces-curious-coefficients/</link>
	<description>Sociological Images encourages people to exercise and develop their sociological imaginations with discussions of compelling visuals that span the breadth of sociological inquiry.</description>
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		<title>By: Ben Zvan</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/12/15/church-saves-marriage-and-produces-curious-coefficients/comment-page-1/#comment-541354</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ben Zvan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=42866#comment-541354</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[They tell you the numbers are adjusted for age, income, education, and race/ethnicity...they just don&#039;t tell you how. &quot;These numbers are all different...make them the same.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They tell you the numbers are adjusted for age, income, education, and race/ethnicity&#8230;they just don&#8217;t tell you how. &#8220;These numbers are all different&#8230;make them the same.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Leigha</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/12/15/church-saves-marriage-and-produces-curious-coefficients/comment-page-1/#comment-541221</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Leigha]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Dec 2011 03:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=42866#comment-541221</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I noticed that too. If they&#039;re trying to say more kids makes you happier, then why is no kids the same as 4+ and higher than 1-3?


Also, all these numbers are just painfully tidy.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I noticed that too. If they&#8217;re trying to say more kids makes you happier, then why is no kids the same as 4+ and higher than 1-3?</p>
<p>Also, all these numbers are just painfully tidy.</p>
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		<title>By: benji</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/12/15/church-saves-marriage-and-produces-curious-coefficients/comment-page-1/#comment-541201</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[benji]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Dec 2011 15:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=42866#comment-541201</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[... That&#039;s what happens when your brain wants go give them benefit of the doubt. I missed the + next to the 4. 4+ children...

This changes changes their &quot;results&quot; from &quot;so unlikely they are pretty much impossible&quot; to a straight &quot;impossible&quot;.

If there is no subset with a high happyness with marriage ratio of over 26% and the merger of those subsets is the whole population (of wives in this case). The high happyness with marriage ratio CAN NOT BE over 26%.

I guess you have heard of gerrymandering. You might have asked yourself why he didn&#039;t tailor the districts in a way that ALL of them are in his hand. Well, because it&#039;s impossible when a majority of voters are against him.

Same thing here. If the whole population of wifes has a high happyness with marriage ratio of at least 50%, then at least one of the subsets by number of children has to have 50% too, as every wife has a number of children and therefore is in one of the subsets.

So this has gone from &quot;Ok, I&#039;m almost certain this is fake.&quot; to &quot;It is absolutely impossible for this not to be faked numbers.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230; That&#8217;s what happens when your brain wants go give them benefit of the doubt. I missed the + next to the 4. 4+ children&#8230;</p>
<p>This changes changes their &#8220;results&#8221; from &#8220;so unlikely they are pretty much impossible&#8221; to a straight &#8220;impossible&#8221;.</p>
<p>If there is no subset with a high happyness with marriage ratio of over 26% and the merger of those subsets is the whole population (of wives in this case). The high happyness with marriage ratio CAN NOT BE over 26%.</p>
<p>I guess you have heard of gerrymandering. You might have asked yourself why he didn&#8217;t tailor the districts in a way that ALL of them are in his hand. Well, because it&#8217;s impossible when a majority of voters are against him.</p>
<p>Same thing here. If the whole population of wifes has a high happyness with marriage ratio of at least 50%, then at least one of the subsets by number of children has to have 50% too, as every wife has a number of children and therefore is in one of the subsets.</p>
<p>So this has gone from &#8220;Ok, I&#8217;m almost certain this is fake.&#8221; to &#8220;It is absolutely impossible for this not to be faked numbers.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: benji</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/12/15/church-saves-marriage-and-produces-curious-coefficients/comment-page-1/#comment-541200</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[benji]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Dec 2011 15:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=42866#comment-541200</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Another correction: Assuming ALL husbands in marriages with 5 or more children are very happy with their marriage and there are no married couples with 1,2 or 3 children only 1/3 (instead of half) of the couples would have to have at least 5 children. 

Those are pretty generous for that christian &quot;scientists&quot; to say the least.

To make our assumptions even more generous: Even if there are no married couples with 4 children so all couples would have either 0 or at least 5 children*, the average number of children per married woman would still have to be 2.6, which is quite a bit higher than the 2.0 or so children per woman OECD gives for the US.


*Yes, this would imply that woman always get at least 5 children AT ONCE at first birth giving and no children would die before &quot;replacement&quot; was born. Didn&#039;t i say these were rather &quot;unlikely&quot; assumptions to make the best case for them?



]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another correction: Assuming ALL husbands in marriages with 5 or more children are very happy with their marriage and there are no married couples with 1,2 or 3 children only 1/3 (instead of half) of the couples would have to have at least 5 children. </p>
<p>Those are pretty generous for that christian &#8220;scientists&#8221; to say the least.</p>
<p>To make our assumptions even more generous: Even if there are no married couples with 4 children so all couples would have either 0 or at least 5 children*, the average number of children per married woman would still have to be 2.6, which is quite a bit higher than the 2.0 or so children per woman OECD gives for the US.</p>
<p>*Yes, this would imply that woman always get at least 5 children AT ONCE at first birth giving and no children would die before &#8220;replacement&#8221; was born. Didn&#8217;t i say these were rather &#8220;unlikely&#8221; assumptions to make the best case for them?</p>
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		<title>By: benji</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/12/15/church-saves-marriage-and-produces-curious-coefficients/comment-page-1/#comment-541199</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[benji]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Dec 2011 14:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=42866#comment-541199</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Uhh, missed a %. Should be  6% *x + 21% *(1-x) &lt; 11%  of course.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Uhh, missed a %. Should be  6% *x + 21% *(1-x) &lt; 11%  of course.</p>
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		<title>By: benji</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/12/15/church-saves-marriage-and-produces-curious-coefficients/comment-page-1/#comment-541198</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[benji]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Dec 2011 13:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=42866#comment-541198</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The numbers are obviously not real. And it&#039;s rather easy to prove even just using the first two graphs.

Look at the average high divorce proneness in husbands in the whole population from the second graph. Obviously you can&#039;t tell what it is excatly because you don&#039;t know how many people feel whether god is the center of their marriage. But you know that it is at most 11%.

Now from the first graph we know that 21% of the husbands in marriages in which not both partners attend church regularly have a high divorce proneness and it&#039;s 6% for husbands in marriages where both partners regularly attend church.

We can now calculate how many married couples have to both attend church regularly so that the average high divorce proneness in husbands is at most 11%.

Let x be the ratio of married couples who both attend church regularly per married couples, then:

6% * x + 21% *(1-x)  x &gt; 2/3

So at least two thirds of married couples attend church together* regularly.
If that was true churches wouldn&#039;t have to lie so obviously...

Now ... let&#039;s come to the third graph ...
to put it simply:

For this and the other two graphs to be true at the same time a LOT of married couples would have to have at least 5 children. And by a lot i mean AT LEAST HALF OF THEM. This is obviously not true in the american society as a whole and it&#039;s nigh imposible to draw such a subset of the americans in a representative way. (minor concern: why don&#039;t you list 5+ children if that is more than half your sample?)

TL:DR results are mathematically about as unlikely as you quantum tunneling to the other side of the planet in the next five minutes.

*They don&#039;t have to go together, but both partners in a marriage attending church regularly will result in them doing so together rather often, i guess.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The numbers are obviously not real. And it&#8217;s rather easy to prove even just using the first two graphs.</p>
<p>Look at the average high divorce proneness in husbands in the whole population from the second graph. Obviously you can&#8217;t tell what it is excatly because you don&#8217;t know how many people feel whether god is the center of their marriage. But you know that it is at most 11%.</p>
<p>Now from the first graph we know that 21% of the husbands in marriages in which not both partners attend church regularly have a high divorce proneness and it&#8217;s 6% for husbands in marriages where both partners regularly attend church.</p>
<p>We can now calculate how many married couples have to both attend church regularly so that the average high divorce proneness in husbands is at most 11%.</p>
<p>Let x be the ratio of married couples who both attend church regularly per married couples, then:</p>
<p>6% * x + 21% *(1-x)  x &gt; 2/3</p>
<p>So at least two thirds of married couples attend church together* regularly.<br />
If that was true churches wouldn&#8217;t have to lie so obviously&#8230;</p>
<p>Now &#8230; let&#8217;s come to the third graph &#8230;<br />
to put it simply:</p>
<p>For this and the other two graphs to be true at the same time a LOT of married couples would have to have at least 5 children. And by a lot i mean AT LEAST HALF OF THEM. This is obviously not true in the american society as a whole and it&#8217;s nigh imposible to draw such a subset of the americans in a representative way. (minor concern: why don&#8217;t you list 5+ children if that is more than half your sample?)</p>
<p>TL:DR results are mathematically about as unlikely as you quantum tunneling to the other side of the planet in the next five minutes.</p>
<p>*They don&#8217;t have to go together, but both partners in a marriage attending church regularly will result in them doing so together rather often, i guess.</p>
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		<title>By: Doulamichelle</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/12/15/church-saves-marriage-and-produces-curious-coefficients/comment-page-1/#comment-541196</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Doulamichelle]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Dec 2011 11:58:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=42866#comment-541196</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The only thing I can say right now is, I&#039;m not surprised they claim couples with four or more children are happier. Because, it is &quot;in&quot; to have large families within some Christian circles. They want to put thier couples, families, and life style in a good light.
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The only thing I can say right now is, I&#8217;m not surprised they claim couples with four or more children are happier. Because, it is &#8220;in&#8221; to have large families within some Christian circles. They want to put thier couples, families, and life style in a good light.</p>
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		<title>By: Lance</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/12/15/church-saves-marriage-and-produces-curious-coefficients/comment-page-1/#comment-541192</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lance]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Dec 2011 07:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=42866#comment-541192</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You might ask how one measures &quot;divorce proneness&quot;, in that second graph.  Fortunately, their &quot;e-ppendix&quot; at http://www.stateofourunions.org/2011/e-ppendix.php has the answer (and so very much more!).  In this case,
&lt;blockquote&gt;High divorce proneness was defined as
         reporting a “3” or higher (on a scale from 0-10) regarding
         the likelihood that “you and your partner will eventually
         separate or divorce.”&lt;/blockquote&gt;So it&#039;s (a) self-determined, and (b) set at 30% likeliness to be &quot;highly prone&quot;.  Thanks, science!

]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You might ask how one measures &#8220;divorce proneness&#8221;, in that second graph.  Fortunately, their &#8220;e-ppendix&#8221; at <a href="http://www.stateofourunions.org/2011/e-ppendix.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.stateofourunions.org/2011/e-ppendix.php</a> has the answer (and so very much more!).  In this case,</p>
<blockquote><p>High divorce proneness was defined as<br />
         reporting a “3” or higher (on a scale from 0-10) regarding<br />
         the likelihood that “you and your partner will eventually<br />
         separate or divorce.”</p></blockquote>
<p>So it&#8217;s (a) self-determined, and (b) set at 30% likeliness to be &#8220;highly prone&#8221;.  Thanks, science!</p>
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		<title>By: National Marriage Project Does S***ty Research Again; People Always Thought Students Couldn&#8217;t Write; and More &#171; Welcome to the Doctor&#039;s Office</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/12/15/church-saves-marriage-and-produces-curious-coefficients/comment-page-1/#comment-526870</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[National Marriage Project Does S***ty Research Again; People Always Thought Students Couldn&#8217;t Write; and More &#171; Welcome to the Doctor&#039;s Office]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Dec 2011 23:59:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=42866#comment-526870</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] CHURCH SAVES MARRIAGE… AND PRODUCES CURIOUS COEFFICIENTS by Philip N. Cohen, [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] CHURCH SAVES MARRIAGE… AND PRODUCES CURIOUS COEFFICIENTS by Philip N. Cohen, [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: jam</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/12/15/church-saves-marriage-and-produces-curious-coefficients/comment-page-1/#comment-541182</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jam]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Dec 2011 23:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=42866#comment-541182</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I can&#039;t think of the last time that statistics made me laugh so heartily. Seriously, when does anyone get numbers like that in real life? If I were more of a geek I might want to think of a way to calculate the probability of getting the same exact regression result on so many variables in the same study.

Good post!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t think of the last time that statistics made me laugh so heartily. Seriously, when does anyone get numbers like that in real life? If I were more of a geek I might want to think of a way to calculate the probability of getting the same exact regression result on so many variables in the same study.</p>
<p>Good post!</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/12/15/church-saves-marriage-and-produces-curious-coefficients/comment-page-1/#comment-541171</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Dec 2011 21:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=42866#comment-541171</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No kidding. Let&#039;s just ignore the lack of evidence for a causal relationship (even if it practically *begs* to be brought up.)
What this advice also implies that couples who have one child and are unhappy with parenting should just keep reproducing until they hit that sweet spot. Excellent advice. People who don&#039;t want children &lt;i&gt;always&lt;/i&gt; make the best parents.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No kidding. Let&#8217;s just ignore the lack of evidence for a causal relationship (even if it practically *begs* to be brought up.)<br />
What this advice also implies that couples who have one child and are unhappy with parenting should just keep reproducing until they hit that sweet spot. Excellent advice. People who don&#8217;t want children <i>always</i> make the best parents.</p>
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		<title>By: PinkWithIndignation</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/12/15/church-saves-marriage-and-produces-curious-coefficients/comment-page-1/#comment-541168</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[PinkWithIndignation]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Dec 2011 19:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=42866#comment-541168</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Don&#039;t forget- NO kids makes you happier than having 1-3 kids! If you&#039;re not going to see a return on your happiness until you hit the financially straining 4-kid mark, why bother! What a wonderful study TO PROMOTE THE USE OF BIRTH CONTROL.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t forget- NO kids makes you happier than having 1-3 kids! If you&#8217;re not going to see a return on your happiness until you hit the financially straining 4-kid mark, why bother! What a wonderful study TO PROMOTE THE USE OF BIRTH CONTROL.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/12/15/church-saves-marriage-and-produces-curious-coefficients/comment-page-1/#comment-541165</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Dec 2011 19:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=42866#comment-541165</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Even if the numbers aren&#039;t cooked, this statement seems like a bit of a leap: &quot;In all likelihood, the experience of sharing regular religious attendance....&quot;

It&#039;s ONE POSSIBLE explanation, but it could be that just doing &lt;i&gt;things&lt;/i&gt; together--i.e., having common interests--makes the marriage happier. If it was religious attendance, specifically, I&#039;d expect there to be a slight bump in the numbers when only one spouse attends regularly.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even if the numbers aren&#8217;t cooked, this statement seems like a bit of a leap: &#8220;In all likelihood, the experience of sharing regular religious attendance&#8230;.&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s ONE POSSIBLE explanation, but it could be that just doing <i>things</i> together&#8211;i.e., having common interests&#8211;makes the marriage happier. If it was religious attendance, specifically, I&#8217;d expect there to be a slight bump in the numbers when only one spouse attends regularly.</p>
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