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	<title>Comments on: Race, Appropriation, &amp; Lindy Hop: How to Honor our Heroes</title>
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	<description>Sociological Images encourages people to exercise and develop their sociological imaginations with discussions of compelling visuals that span the breadth of sociological inquiry.</description>
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		<title>By: Links of the Week: Dressing for the Gents &#124; Lindypenguin</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/07/05/race-appropriation-lindy-hop-how-to-honor-our-heroes/comment-page-1/#comment-591527</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Links of the Week: Dressing for the Gents &#124; Lindypenguin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2014 20:35:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=37215#comment-591527</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[&#8230;] a bit naff (and then there&#8217;s the whole link to the zoot suit riots. Plus the whole historical appropriation of wearing a symbol of rebellious second generation Mexican American youth whilst doing a dance [&#8230;]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] a bit naff (and then there&#8217;s the whole link to the zoot suit riots. Plus the whole historical appropriation of wearing a symbol of rebellious second generation Mexican American youth whilst doing a dance [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Boolive2</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/07/05/race-appropriation-lindy-hop-how-to-honor-our-heroes/comment-page-1/#comment-570780</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Boolive2]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Mar 2013 08:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=37215#comment-570780</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[ it displays and reinforces the view that white people would be too uptight and lackluster to spontaneously enjoy themselves ,even if invited by Gabriel .The joke goes both ways ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> it displays and reinforces the view that white people would be too uptight and lackluster to spontaneously enjoy themselves ,even if invited by Gabriel .The joke goes both ways </p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Desiree_82</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/07/05/race-appropriation-lindy-hop-how-to-honor-our-heroes/comment-page-1/#comment-538238</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Desiree_82]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2011 19:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=37215#comment-538238</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[ So, does it mean that only white people are allowed to dance waltz? Because it&#039;s from white culture?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> So, does it mean that only white people are allowed to dance waltz? Because it&#8217;s from white culture?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/07/05/race-appropriation-lindy-hop-how-to-honor-our-heroes/comment-page-1/#comment-532267</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Aug 2011 22:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=37215#comment-532267</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[How about this.... look at the big picture as not studying the art but wanting to know more and more about it out of a greater appreciation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about this&#8230;. look at the big picture as not studying the art but wanting to know more and more about it out of a greater appreciation.</p>
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		<title>By: Cocojams Jambalayah</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/07/05/race-appropriation-lindy-hop-how-to-honor-our-heroes/comment-page-1/#comment-531041</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cocojams Jambalayah]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Aug 2011 19:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=37215#comment-531041</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I revisited this discussion because of this journal article about Lindy hop that Lisa wrote which she cited in her blog post for August 1, 2011:

http://lisawadedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/2011-wade-the-emancipatory-promise-of-the-habitus.pdf  The emancipatory promise of the habitus: Lindy hop, the body, and social change

Noëlle Gray, I appreciate all of your comments. I particularly appreciate your comments about how all musicians/artists build on art/music that came before them or was/is around them. Given that the United States is supposedly post-racial (ha!), I think it&#039;s telling that your Black co-worker was reluctant to attend a lindy hop class with you because she &quot;couldn&#039;t believe that she could be in a room full of white people without feeling uncomfortable.&quot; However, I think that it&#039;s possible that rather than your Black co-worker realizing &quot;that she wasn&#039;t black and the other students weren&#039;t white. &quot;We were all just dancers&quot;, she may have realized that race wasn&#039;t all that important in the context of &lt;i&gt;that particular&lt;/i&gt; experience. 

I believe that it&#039;s almost impossible for Black people (and other People of Color) to turn off and on being Black (or another race/ethnicity). But sometimes race/ethnicity matters more than other times. 

Furthermore, Noëlle, I believe that if there were more Black people who were lindy hoppers now, it&#039;s likely that the Lindy Hop dance would sometimes be performed differently than it&#039;s now performed by non-Black people. 

I also believe that a person&#039;s race, and beliefs-such as being a feminist- can and often does influence her or his interpretation of the history, meaning, and performance of social dances such as the lindy hop.

One example of how I think a White, feminist template can color the description and interpretation of the Lindy hop is this quote from Lisa Wade&#039;s journal article:

&quot;Lindy hop is directly derived from the Charleston (Malone,1996). Emerging during the first wave of modern feminism, the Charleston challenged the notion that women must be fragile or immobile and was characterized by angular and awkward movements (all knees and elbows), high-tempo movements, short hair, and boyish fashions.

Lindy hop retains elements of the Charleston and also its liberatory aesthetic.”

-snip-

Another comment from that same article that I believe reflects a White, feminist belief is 

[Beginning female lindy hoppers] “come to dance with a feminine habitus that emphasizes grace and fragility instead of power and strength”.

-snip-

Perhaps that statement is true for most young Anglo-American females. After all, the overwhelming majority of Lindy hoppers in the United States are White. But given that demographical fact, I believe that it&#039;s very problematic when researchers such as Lisa Wade focus on gender and give barely a nod to how race, class, and age influence and inform the contemporary performances of the Lindy hop.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I revisited this discussion because of this journal article about Lindy hop that Lisa wrote which she cited in her blog post for August 1, 2011:</p>
<p><a href="http://lisawadedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/2011-wade-the-emancipatory-promise-of-the-habitus.pdf " rel="nofollow">http://lisawadedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/2011-wade-the-emancipatory-promise-of-the-habitus.pdf </a> The emancipatory promise of the habitus: Lindy hop, the body, and social change</p>
<p>Noëlle Gray, I appreciate all of your comments. I particularly appreciate your comments about how all musicians/artists build on art/music that came before them or was/is around them. Given that the United States is supposedly post-racial (ha!), I think it&#8217;s telling that your Black co-worker was reluctant to attend a lindy hop class with you because she &#8220;couldn&#8217;t believe that she could be in a room full of white people without feeling uncomfortable.&#8221; However, I think that it&#8217;s possible that rather than your Black co-worker realizing &#8220;that she wasn&#8217;t black and the other students weren&#8217;t white. &#8220;We were all just dancers&#8221;, she may have realized that race wasn&#8217;t all that important in the context of <i>that particular</i> experience. </p>
<p>I believe that it&#8217;s almost impossible for Black people (and other People of Color) to turn off and on being Black (or another race/ethnicity). But sometimes race/ethnicity matters more than other times. </p>
<p>Furthermore, Noëlle, I believe that if there were more Black people who were lindy hoppers now, it&#8217;s likely that the Lindy Hop dance would sometimes be performed differently than it&#8217;s now performed by non-Black people. </p>
<p>I also believe that a person&#8217;s race, and beliefs-such as being a feminist- can and often does influence her or his interpretation of the history, meaning, and performance of social dances such as the lindy hop.</p>
<p>One example of how I think a White, feminist template can color the description and interpretation of the Lindy hop is this quote from Lisa Wade&#8217;s journal article:</p>
<p>&#8220;Lindy hop is directly derived from the Charleston (Malone,1996). Emerging during the first wave of modern feminism, the Charleston challenged the notion that women must be fragile or immobile and was characterized by angular and awkward movements (all knees and elbows), high-tempo movements, short hair, and boyish fashions.</p>
<p>Lindy hop retains elements of the Charleston and also its liberatory aesthetic.”</p>
<p>-snip-</p>
<p>Another comment from that same article that I believe reflects a White, feminist belief is </p>
<p>[Beginning female lindy hoppers] “come to dance with a feminine habitus that emphasizes grace and fragility instead of power and strength”.</p>
<p>-snip-</p>
<p>Perhaps that statement is true for most young Anglo-American females. After all, the overwhelming majority of Lindy hoppers in the United States are White. But given that demographical fact, I believe that it&#8217;s very problematic when researchers such as Lisa Wade focus on gender and give barely a nod to how race, class, and age influence and inform the contemporary performances of the Lindy hop.</p>
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		<title>By: Gretchen</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/07/05/race-appropriation-lindy-hop-how-to-honor-our-heroes/comment-page-1/#comment-529221</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gretchen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jul 2011 17:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=37215#comment-529221</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m way late to this party, but just wanted to say what an interesting discussion this has been to read. I&#039;ve been taking belly dance classes recently and it&#039;s another art form that deals with the complications of performing (as middle class, white Americans) a style of dance that has its birth in Western colonial expectations of Middle Eastern women, and for which the golden era was during the early Hollywood film years. There&#039;s a lot to unpack when thinking about this stuff, so I really appreciate all the different perspectives on it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m way late to this party, but just wanted to say what an interesting discussion this has been to read. I&#8217;ve been taking belly dance classes recently and it&#8217;s another art form that deals with the complications of performing (as middle class, white Americans) a style of dance that has its birth in Western colonial expectations of Middle Eastern women, and for which the golden era was during the early Hollywood film years. There&#8217;s a lot to unpack when thinking about this stuff, so I really appreciate all the different perspectives on it.</p>
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		<title>By: Noëlle Gray</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/07/05/race-appropriation-lindy-hop-how-to-honor-our-heroes/comment-page-1/#comment-528922</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Noëlle Gray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jul 2011 21:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=37215#comment-528922</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dance is a living art from. Everyone &quot;steals&quot; from everyone. I disagree with the use of that word since it somehow implies malicious intent, but that&#039;s the nature of creativity: finding inspiration in the things that move you. There is no such thing as an artist who doesn&#039;t borrow from another artist. No art form would grow if this didn&#039;t happen.

If you were to go to any one of the national or international Lindy Hop camps, events or competitions you&#039;d see two things: the preservation of the original dance as it has developed and the innovation of the form by its newest and brightest devotees. Color and race are not a factor in this.

There aren&#039;t a lot of black people dancing Lindy Hop these days, but isn&#039;t it interesting that so many of the vernacular jazz moves attributed to the dance are seen in hip hop, crunk, popping and locking, break dancing, etc? Isn&#039;t it also interesting that Lindy Hop has a style called &quot;ball rooming&quot; as well? I find it amusing that Lindy Hop pulls from contact improvisation, like what Pilobolus does, but very few dancers are aware of that.

Lisa seems to think that most dancers are naive to the racism, but Most of the Lindy Hoppers I know are hyper aware that the old footage is racist. I can&#039;t help but wonder who she spoke to in order to draw this conclusion? But many of them have ALSO sought out the &quot;old timers&quot; to ask them what got changed for the sake of the footage and to learn what the footage doesn&#039;t show. Additionally: there is A LOT of footage out there that wasn&#039;t filmed for the white audience and we watch all of it (thank you to the people who have lovingly archived these precious gems).

Die hard dancers like Dax and Sarah are preservationists (for better and worse) of a form of dance that is astounding and was almost entirely lost. Why did they win first place? Likely because they have honored the people who were dancing in that clip, not their color. Certainly because they know the history of the dance and the people who did it first. Also: with this in mind they still stay true to their own style and idea about what the dance is. And definitely because the AUDIENCE knows all of this, too!

At Frankie&#039;s last birthday party a group of dancers did a tribute to him using his favorite moves. No one saw skin color. All we saw was how beloved this man was and how much he&#039;d influenced us. As Norma Miller has stated numerous times: the ballrooms in Harlem were the first integrated places in the US. And we all know Miss Norma.

As a Lindy Hopper I don&#039;t spend a whole lot of time thinking about how I am &quot;stealing&quot; or if what I&#039;m doing is racist. I&#039;m thinking about how I can interpret the music...what step works best. I&#039;m thinking about the joy of community and creativity and what this dance meant to a generation of people; what it means to the current generation. I&#039;m thinking about how I can pass this gift on to others. I&#039;m thinking about how sad I am for people who aren&#039;t a part of it or any creative community. Lindy Hop, Modern, jazz, classical. It&#039;s all essentially the same, just a different way of playing the same instruments.

Any Lindy Hop teacher I know makes the point of giving a history lesson about the dance. Anyone with half a brain can see that some of the footage out there is racist. We as Lindy Hoppers are looking past that to see the form itself. For the dancer that is what&#039;s most important, I believe.

I asked a black coworker to come to one of my classes. She didn&#039;t want to. She couldn&#039;t believe that she could be in a room full of white people without feeling uncomfortable. She came anyway. I asked her afterward to revisit her original reservation. She said that she quickly realized that she wasn&#039;t black and the other students weren&#039;t white. &quot;We were all just dancers.&quot;

That&#039;s how modern Lindy Hoppers think. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dance is a living art from. Everyone &#8220;steals&#8221; from everyone. I disagree with the use of that word since it somehow implies malicious intent, but that&#8217;s the nature of creativity: finding inspiration in the things that move you. There is no such thing as an artist who doesn&#8217;t borrow from another artist. No art form would grow if this didn&#8217;t happen.</p>
<p>If you were to go to any one of the national or international Lindy Hop camps, events or competitions you&#8217;d see two things: the preservation of the original dance as it has developed and the innovation of the form by its newest and brightest devotees. Color and race are not a factor in this.</p>
<p>There aren&#8217;t a lot of black people dancing Lindy Hop these days, but isn&#8217;t it interesting that so many of the vernacular jazz moves attributed to the dance are seen in hip hop, crunk, popping and locking, break dancing, etc? Isn&#8217;t it also interesting that Lindy Hop has a style called &#8220;ball rooming&#8221; as well? I find it amusing that Lindy Hop pulls from contact improvisation, like what Pilobolus does, but very few dancers are aware of that.</p>
<p>Lisa seems to think that most dancers are naive to the racism, but Most of the Lindy Hoppers I know are hyper aware that the old footage is racist. I can&#8217;t help but wonder who she spoke to in order to draw this conclusion? But many of them have ALSO sought out the &#8220;old timers&#8221; to ask them what got changed for the sake of the footage and to learn what the footage doesn&#8217;t show. Additionally: there is A LOT of footage out there that wasn&#8217;t filmed for the white audience and we watch all of it (thank you to the people who have lovingly archived these precious gems).</p>
<p>Die hard dancers like Dax and Sarah are preservationists (for better and worse) of a form of dance that is astounding and was almost entirely lost. Why did they win first place? Likely because they have honored the people who were dancing in that clip, not their color. Certainly because they know the history of the dance and the people who did it first. Also: with this in mind they still stay true to their own style and idea about what the dance is. And definitely because the AUDIENCE knows all of this, too!</p>
<p>At Frankie&#8217;s last birthday party a group of dancers did a tribute to him using his favorite moves. No one saw skin color. All we saw was how beloved this man was and how much he&#8217;d influenced us. As Norma Miller has stated numerous times: the ballrooms in Harlem were the first integrated places in the US. And we all know Miss Norma.</p>
<p>As a Lindy Hopper I don&#8217;t spend a whole lot of time thinking about how I am &#8220;stealing&#8221; or if what I&#8217;m doing is racist. I&#8217;m thinking about how I can interpret the music&#8230;what step works best. I&#8217;m thinking about the joy of community and creativity and what this dance meant to a generation of people; what it means to the current generation. I&#8217;m thinking about how I can pass this gift on to others. I&#8217;m thinking about how sad I am for people who aren&#8217;t a part of it or any creative community. Lindy Hop, Modern, jazz, classical. It&#8217;s all essentially the same, just a different way of playing the same instruments.</p>
<p>Any Lindy Hop teacher I know makes the point of giving a history lesson about the dance. Anyone with half a brain can see that some of the footage out there is racist. We as Lindy Hoppers are looking past that to see the form itself. For the dancer that is what&#8217;s most important, I believe.</p>
<p>I asked a black coworker to come to one of my classes. She didn&#8217;t want to. She couldn&#8217;t believe that she could be in a room full of white people without feeling uncomfortable. She came anyway. I asked her afterward to revisit her original reservation. She said that she quickly realized that she wasn&#8217;t black and the other students weren&#8217;t white. &#8220;We were all just dancers.&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s how modern Lindy Hoppers think. </p>
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		<title>By: Adrian</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/07/05/race-appropriation-lindy-hop-how-to-honor-our-heroes/comment-page-1/#comment-528671</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Adrian]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jul 2011 02:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=37215#comment-528671</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wow, that was an exhausting read through of the comments.  I&#039;ll try to bullet point my thoughts:

Assumptions:
  -&quot;[the mostly white contemporary lindy hoppers] are mostly naive to the fact that the dancing they are emulating was a product made to confirm white people’s beliefs about black people.&quot;
What you&#039;re saying is the Lindy Hop was created to &quot;confirm white people&#039;s beliefs about black people. I doubt you meant to make such a sweeping comment. It would significantly undervalue black people&#039;s role in creating the Lindy Hop. 

- &quot;These movies portrayed black people in ways that white people were comfortable with&quot; 
Portraying black people in movies may have also been an attempt at drawing greater black audiences to the theater in which case this could also be considered a wider recognition of black culture acquiring a consumer capacity. 
(A lot of people discuss the stereotyping in the comments. But I believe this portrayal of black people is more complex. Their performance is opposite the Marks Brothers, one of the largest box-office draws of the time. Overall the movie is kind of a variety show: music, dance, comedy. This dance scene is included not because of its racy overtones, but because at its core, the scene is entertainment. Almost all advancements in race relations are at best two steps forward, and one step back. This is one of those examples.)

- &quot;it’s troubling that the dance was appropriated then (for white 
audiences) and that it is that appropriation that lives on (for mostly 
white dancers)&quot;
Oftentimes a cultural medium like dance is a comfortable middle ground for bridges to be built between either opposing or indifferent cultures. Sports, music, dance, all of these can also act as bridges and what you call appropriation may just as well be an unspoken treaty between otherwise hostel peoples. Even the song she sings is about unity. ALL God&#039;s children have rhythm. The scene opens with Harpo leading the musical charge. While he doesn&#039;t play directly with the band, it recognizes a kind of overall togetherness. There isn&#039;t fear or belittling between the races.

Overall, I&#039;m not going to suggest your assumptions are incorrect, but they only speak to a single perspective on the discussion. Entailed in the DNA of the dance are so many things including race, class, gender and status. But there are other qualities that contemporary dancers can relate to like joy, energy, celebration, socializing, performing. . . 

It just seems like there&#039;s more to this than you initially proposed.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, that was an exhausting read through of the comments.  I&#8217;ll try to bullet point my thoughts:</p>
<p>Assumptions:<br />
  -&#8220;[the mostly white contemporary lindy hoppers] are mostly naive to the fact that the dancing they are emulating was a product made to confirm white people’s beliefs about black people.&#8221;<br />
What you&#8217;re saying is the Lindy Hop was created to &#8220;confirm white people&#8217;s beliefs about black people. I doubt you meant to make such a sweeping comment. It would significantly undervalue black people&#8217;s role in creating the Lindy Hop. </p>
<p>&#8211; &#8220;These movies portrayed black people in ways that white people were comfortable with&#8221;<br />
Portraying black people in movies may have also been an attempt at drawing greater black audiences to the theater in which case this could also be considered a wider recognition of black culture acquiring a consumer capacity.<br />
(A lot of people discuss the stereotyping in the comments. But I believe this portrayal of black people is more complex. Their performance is opposite the Marks Brothers, one of the largest box-office draws of the time. Overall the movie is kind of a variety show: music, dance, comedy. This dance scene is included not because of its racy overtones, but because at its core, the scene is entertainment. Almost all advancements in race relations are at best two steps forward, and one step back. This is one of those examples.)</p>
<p>&#8211; &#8220;it’s troubling that the dance was appropriated then (for white<br />
audiences) and that it is that appropriation that lives on (for mostly<br />
white dancers)&#8221;<br />
Oftentimes a cultural medium like dance is a comfortable middle ground for bridges to be built between either opposing or indifferent cultures. Sports, music, dance, all of these can also act as bridges and what you call appropriation may just as well be an unspoken treaty between otherwise hostel peoples. Even the song she sings is about unity. ALL God&#8217;s children have rhythm. The scene opens with Harpo leading the musical charge. While he doesn&#8217;t play directly with the band, it recognizes a kind of overall togetherness. There isn&#8217;t fear or belittling between the races.</p>
<p>Overall, I&#8217;m not going to suggest your assumptions are incorrect, but they only speak to a single perspective on the discussion. Entailed in the DNA of the dance are so many things including race, class, gender and status. But there are other qualities that contemporary dancers can relate to like joy, energy, celebration, socializing, performing. . . </p>
<p>It just seems like there&#8217;s more to this than you initially proposed.</p>
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		<title>By: Elena</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/07/05/race-appropriation-lindy-hop-how-to-honor-our-heroes/comment-page-1/#comment-528496</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Elena]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jul 2011 22:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=37215#comment-528496</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[...Although, now that I dig a little more, maybe the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3_CkSubmk0&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Legend of the Blind Samurai&lt;/a&gt; woulld be more of a love letter to anime. Half Ninja Scroll, half Afro Samurai :D

Oh, and compare the second Boondocks opening to the Cowboy Bebop OP for more fun.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;Although, now that I dig a little more, maybe the <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3_CkSubmk0" rel="nofollow">Legend of the Blind Samurai</a> woulld be more of a love letter to anime. Half Ninja Scroll, half Afro Samurai :D</p>
<p>Oh, and compare the second Boondocks opening to the Cowboy Bebop OP for more fun.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Elena</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/07/05/race-appropriation-lindy-hop-how-to-honor-our-heroes/comment-page-1/#comment-528488</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Elena]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jul 2011 21:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=37215#comment-528488</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m just going to leave a couple of links to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_9Hms8wDls&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Afro Samurai&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XxK3keq6A0&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Boondocks&lt;/a&gt; anime^H^H^Hcartoon. Oh, and also &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nujabes&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Nujabes&lt;/a&gt;&#039; wonderful song for the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7C3rIh0GW0g&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Samurai Champloo opening credits&lt;/a&gt;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m just going to leave a couple of links to <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_9Hms8wDls" rel="nofollow">Afro Samurai</a> and <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XxK3keq6A0" rel="nofollow">The Boondocks</a> anime^H^H^Hcartoon. Oh, and also <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nujabes" rel="nofollow">Nujabes</a>&#8216; wonderful song for the <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7C3rIh0GW0g" rel="nofollow">Samurai Champloo opening credits</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Cocojams Jambalayah</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/07/05/race-appropriation-lindy-hop-how-to-honor-our-heroes/comment-page-1/#comment-528378</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cocojams Jambalayah]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jul 2011 01:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=37215#comment-528378</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[For the sake of those who may happen upon this discussion, here&#039;s a link to a longer version of this Day At The Races dance scene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2f9dFrvBr4

The scene begins with a White pied piper figure [one of the Marx brothers who were stars of the movie] playing his flute for a White couple who ignore him. He then moves on to the barnyard where he interrupts Black girls jumping rope, and Black children otherwise at play-the longest focus is of boys engaged in the lower class pastime of shooting dice. The children ask &quot;Who dat man?&quot; and answer &quot;It&#039;s Gabriel!&#039; (as in the Biblical archangel) singing a Gospel tinged song and following behind the pied piper. 

Unlike the White couple who brush the pied piper off, the Black children and adults quickly drop what they are doing, form a circle and dance for the pied piper, and supposedly for themselves. 

This clip further displays and reinforces a prevailing White view at that time of Black people as coons-immature, happy, non-threatening, superstitous people who have rhythm. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the sake of those who may happen upon this discussion, here&#8217;s a link to a longer version of this Day At The Races dance scene: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2f9dFrvBr4" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2f9dFrvBr4</a></p>
<p>The scene begins with a White pied piper figure [one of the Marx brothers who were stars of the movie] playing his flute for a White couple who ignore him. He then moves on to the barnyard where he interrupts Black girls jumping rope, and Black children otherwise at play-the longest focus is of boys engaged in the lower class pastime of shooting dice. The children ask &#8220;Who dat man?&#8221; and answer &#8220;It&#8217;s Gabriel!&#8217; (as in the Biblical archangel) singing a Gospel tinged song and following behind the pied piper. </p>
<p>Unlike the White couple who brush the pied piper off, the Black children and adults quickly drop what they are doing, form a circle and dance for the pied piper, and supposedly for themselves. </p>
<p>This clip further displays and reinforces a prevailing White view at that time of Black people as coons-immature, happy, non-threatening, superstitous people who have rhythm. </p>
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		<title>By: dogpossum</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/07/05/race-appropriation-lindy-hop-how-to-honor-our-heroes/comment-page-1/#comment-528376</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dogpossum]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jul 2011 01:01:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=37215#comment-528376</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m interested in your points, Lisa, but I think some of the key issues need a little expansion. I find some of your conclusions troubling. Initially, I&#039;m not comfortable with talking about race or ethnicity _without_ also talking about class (and then gender and then sexuality). This becomes particularly important when you consider lindy hop in Japan or Korea or Singapore. The majority of dancers there are _not_ white, but perhaps they are middle class?  I think that it&#039;s very, very important to interrogate class as an engagement with social and cultural power; it is not enough to end with skin colour as the defining marker of race or ethnicity.

I also have trouble with approaching this discussion via the concept of &#039;tacit knowledge&#039;. Simply, I think there are other ways of talking about what&#039;s going on in the clips that are more useful. I&#039;m with Katrina Hazzard Gordon and Stuart Hall and Paul Gilroy and bell hooks and Judith Butler... I think we need to engage with the ideology at work here in an actively politicised way. These performances aren&#039;t ideologically neutral, nor are the effects of their actions neutral. We need to engage with these issues actively, and we need to unpack the politics - interpersonal as well as institutional. To do otherwise would be to ignore the way these texts embody the wider discourses of the societies in which lindy hop scenes exist, how they function culturally and socially in the modern lindy hop world, and how they articulate power within lindy hop today.

Cultural context is important. It&#039;s difficult to apply American critical tools for discussing race and cultural transmission to the UK or Europe (where Ryan Francoise and Remy Kouakou Kouame are based), for example. I faced similar challenges discussing lindy hop in Australia, where our discursive engagement with race is quite different to the American example. The black British migrant experience is also quite different to the American, and histories of slavery in Britain, America and Australia are quite different. As an example, many Australian simply aren&#039;t aware of their country&#039;s slave history, and indigenous Australian history is not managed in the same way here as it is the US. It&#039;s very difficult to talk about black American dance in film in the 30s without also talking about slavery and understanding the slave history of America. So when Australians watch clips like the Day At The Races one, they don&#039;t resonate in the same way as when an American watches. I guess here, we also need to talk about audiences and reception as well as cultures of production (and institutions producing and disseminating media texts).
The Slow Club clip is interesting because it&#039;s a British band featuring European dancers. The song exists in an international context, and is referencing American television performances by black American dancers. But these performances circulate today again in an international context, and are most familiar to  middle class dancers in a number of countries.I think we need to talk about masculinity as well. Luckily Paul Gilroy and Stuart Hall have done a lot of the heavy lifting for discussions about black British masculinity and identity.While I&#039;ve found the Slow Club clip quite exciting and interesting, the Dax and Sarah clip is a little more challenging. I have plenty to say about this, but I&#039;ll do it on my own blog, rather than derailing the discussion here.So I&#039;m not going to answer your question  about tacit knowledge.

I think I would have liked to see you unpack the clips a little more yourself in this post, rather than setting up a debate for others. How _are_ you reading these clips?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m interested in your points, Lisa, but I think some of the key issues need a little expansion. I find some of your conclusions troubling. Initially, I&#8217;m not comfortable with talking about race or ethnicity _without_ also talking about class (and then gender and then sexuality). This becomes particularly important when you consider lindy hop in Japan or Korea or Singapore. The majority of dancers there are _not_ white, but perhaps they are middle class?  I think that it&#8217;s very, very important to interrogate class as an engagement with social and cultural power; it is not enough to end with skin colour as the defining marker of race or ethnicity.</p>
<p>I also have trouble with approaching this discussion via the concept of &#8216;tacit knowledge&#8217;. Simply, I think there are other ways of talking about what&#8217;s going on in the clips that are more useful. I&#8217;m with Katrina Hazzard Gordon and Stuart Hall and Paul Gilroy and bell hooks and Judith Butler&#8230; I think we need to engage with the ideology at work here in an actively politicised way. These performances aren&#8217;t ideologically neutral, nor are the effects of their actions neutral. We need to engage with these issues actively, and we need to unpack the politics &#8211; interpersonal as well as institutional. To do otherwise would be to ignore the way these texts embody the wider discourses of the societies in which lindy hop scenes exist, how they function culturally and socially in the modern lindy hop world, and how they articulate power within lindy hop today.</p>
<p>Cultural context is important. It&#8217;s difficult to apply American critical tools for discussing race and cultural transmission to the UK or Europe (where Ryan Francoise and Remy Kouakou Kouame are based), for example. I faced similar challenges discussing lindy hop in Australia, where our discursive engagement with race is quite different to the American example. The black British migrant experience is also quite different to the American, and histories of slavery in Britain, America and Australia are quite different. As an example, many Australian simply aren&#8217;t aware of their country&#8217;s slave history, and indigenous Australian history is not managed in the same way here as it is the US. It&#8217;s very difficult to talk about black American dance in film in the 30s without also talking about slavery and understanding the slave history of America. So when Australians watch clips like the Day At The Races one, they don&#8217;t resonate in the same way as when an American watches. I guess here, we also need to talk about audiences and reception as well as cultures of production (and institutions producing and disseminating media texts).<br />
The Slow Club clip is interesting because it&#8217;s a British band featuring European dancers. The song exists in an international context, and is referencing American television performances by black American dancers. But these performances circulate today again in an international context, and are most familiar to  middle class dancers in a number of countries.I think we need to talk about masculinity as well. Luckily Paul Gilroy and Stuart Hall have done a lot of the heavy lifting for discussions about black British masculinity and identity.While I&#8217;ve found the Slow Club clip quite exciting and interesting, the Dax and Sarah clip is a little more challenging. I have plenty to say about this, but I&#8217;ll do it on my own blog, rather than derailing the discussion here.So I&#8217;m not going to answer your question  about tacit knowledge.</p>
<p>I think I would have liked to see you unpack the clips a little more yourself in this post, rather than setting up a debate for others. How _are_ you reading these clips?</p>
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		<title>By: Aoirthoir An Broc</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/07/05/race-appropriation-lindy-hop-how-to-honor-our-heroes/comment-page-1/#comment-528357</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Aoirthoir An Broc]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jul 2011 22:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=37215#comment-528357</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[According to other things I&#039;ve read, no it is not ok. In one case they were making Porn, with men from tribes in Africa, cause you know, men in Africa would never want to..ahem.. Japanese women, and &quot;making&quot; them do so is &quot;oh oh oh oh yes yes ohpression&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to other things I&#8217;ve read, no it is not ok. In one case they were making Porn, with men from tribes in Africa, cause you know, men in Africa would never want to..ahem.. Japanese women, and &#8220;making&#8221; them do so is &#8220;oh oh oh oh yes yes ohpression&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Aoirthoir An Broc</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/07/05/race-appropriation-lindy-hop-how-to-honor-our-heroes/comment-page-1/#comment-528354</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Aoirthoir An Broc]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jul 2011 22:11:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=37215#comment-528354</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well the problem with the definition as laid out of appropriation is that anyone can just claim that one group oppressed when perhaps they did not. Also though one group can claim exclusive rights to a practice, as if they were the only ones that used it. 

So for instance I&#039;ve been told I am appropriating Native American spirituality because I practice healing techniques (you know like my Keltoi ancestors did), or because I chant (you know like my Keltoi ancestors did), or because I participate in or lead drum circles (you know like my Keltoi ancestors did) or because I support sweat lodges (you know like my Keltoi ancestors did), or because I celebrate Halloween/Samhain, you know like my Keltoi ancestors did..

Those that make such statements ignore the vast and rich history of European spiritualities and act like we didn&#039;t also historically do these things all on our own. While I might tolerate (ha!) people being ignorant of our drum circles, healing techniques, lodge work (including sweat lodges) and other things, that are purportedly the exclusive property of people CLAIMED to be more savage than us (Keltoi and Teuton and Jute and Nordic are the only truly savage peoples in history...) the fact that people think Samhain and Halloween are APPROPRIATED by us, is just ridiculous.

As far as the type of appropriation you mentioned, I am also loathe to say it only counts if you had a hand in oppressing me. If it is a requirement that someone must properly understand and use symbols to be &quot;allowed&quot; to use them, then we get to say the same thing. That is you have to understand our symbols if you are going to use them. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well the problem with the definition as laid out of appropriation is that anyone can just claim that one group oppressed when perhaps they did not. Also though one group can claim exclusive rights to a practice, as if they were the only ones that used it. </p>
<p>So for instance I&#8217;ve been told I am appropriating Native American spirituality because I practice healing techniques (you know like my Keltoi ancestors did), or because I chant (you know like my Keltoi ancestors did), or because I participate in or lead drum circles (you know like my Keltoi ancestors did) or because I support sweat lodges (you know like my Keltoi ancestors did), or because I celebrate Halloween/Samhain, you know like my Keltoi ancestors did..</p>
<p>Those that make such statements ignore the vast and rich history of European spiritualities and act like we didn&#8217;t also historically do these things all on our own. While I might tolerate (ha!) people being ignorant of our drum circles, healing techniques, lodge work (including sweat lodges) and other things, that are purportedly the exclusive property of people CLAIMED to be more savage than us (Keltoi and Teuton and Jute and Nordic are the only truly savage peoples in history&#8230;) the fact that people think Samhain and Halloween are APPROPRIATED by us, is just ridiculous.</p>
<p>As far as the type of appropriation you mentioned, I am also loathe to say it only counts if you had a hand in oppressing me. If it is a requirement that someone must properly understand and use symbols to be &#8220;allowed&#8221; to use them, then we get to say the same thing. That is you have to understand our symbols if you are going to use them. </p>
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		<title>By: Yrro Simyarin</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/07/05/race-appropriation-lindy-hop-how-to-honor-our-heroes/comment-page-1/#comment-528328</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Yrro Simyarin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jul 2011 20:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=37215#comment-528328</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The real question is... what the heck is it when the Japanese  use African-American art? You see a strong influence in a fair amount of anime and soundtracks. The Japanese, as far as I know, have no history of oppressing African-Americans... so is it ok when they borrow culture?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The real question is&#8230; what the heck is it when the Japanese  use African-American art? You see a strong influence in a fair amount of anime and soundtracks. The Japanese, as far as I know, have no history of oppressing African-Americans&#8230; so is it ok when they borrow culture?</p>
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