I think from a practical sense, people think that they don't want to shop near bus stops because they associate it with people who may harass them or who operate outside of their idea of how social interactions should unfold. I know that when I go downtown in DC I expect to be harassed by people begging for change, so I think people aren't against bus stops because these people are poor, they are against bus stops because they think that they'll be forced into an awkward social interaction with people who operate differently from themselves.

I don't think it's fair to assume that this has anything to do with the "types" of people riding the bus, as you suggest, although I acknowledge that it could be a factor. There is a particularly busy bus stop in downtown Pittsburgh where I live, and in a 60-foot or so section of sidewalk you may have several dozen or more people waiting for the bus. This definitely makes it hard to navigate the sidewalk, and with people moving on an off of buses as well as the feeling of having the buildings on one side and the buses on the other makes the walk feel very claustrophobic. If I was a business owner on that block and if the bus riders generally did not shop at my business, I would be concerned that I was losing a lot of business.

As someone who frequently rides the bus, it doesn't comfort me anymore to think that people "just" think I'm going to harass them or don't know how to conduct myself in public according to their standards. Also, I don't think that the idea of "people begging for change" can be separated from the idea of "these people are poor".

For someone from Europe, this seems fairly bizarre. A good public transport infrastructure is actually regarded as a sign of civilization around here :)

I don't think this is intended to be classist at all. I think people just hate crowds, and shop owners were complaining that the crowds full of non-shoppers were hurting their business. Its pretty simple.

Neither side is correct, actually. The Broad and High busses carry a mixture of elderly, poor, college student, and business professional passengers. It's only a few blocks away from OSU and a direct line to many upscale neighborhoods. Since parking in downtown Columbus is expensive and in short supply, the busses are a necessity for people of all classes. Saying these people don't shop is erroneous, too. The problem is that there is no where to shop in Downtown Columbus. The mall closed years ago, the flagship Lazarus store is gone, even the first Wendy's has shut it's doors. These establishments didn't die because bus passengers didn't shop. They died because broader social and economic changes left our downtown looking a lot like most other Northern industrial central business districts, and the policies necessary to turn downtown around are politically unpopular.

The funny thing is that a lot of the people who catch the bus there (I couldn't guess a percent, not a majority perhaps, but it's not trivial) are professionals who ride the 1 or 2 bus lines that go out to the suburbs somewhat quickly and easily (i.e. without transfers). Not to mention that the block where the transfer point currently sits (the picture above) is in front of the state house, so there aren't any shops on that side of the street anyways.

Downtown Columbus is mostly quiet outside of business hours and the major mall on the next block over from this bus stop just closed. So, there isn't much shopping going on at all, except lunch restaurants, and the few restaurants/bars near the arena a few blocks away. I don't think that the buses are really what's holding up the retail stores.

It just seems like a "dog-whistle" topic to me; by discouraging public transit, store owners also discourage poorer people and people of color from going outside of "their neighborhood". I know that when the Bistate Transportation Agency extended the St. Louis metro out to the Galleria Mall, store owners and shoppers who came in from the richer parts of the St. Louis County expended a great deal of rhetoric on how the Metro was going to "ruin" the Galleria by bringing in "suspicious characters". And then promptly went to the newer, bigger West County Mall that *just happens* to be harder to reach via public transit.

So strange. I don't know how Columbus is set up, but I do know it is smaller than Chicago, and it seems more spacious. I can't imagining something quite like this flying there...even middle class or rich people going to work or taking the afternoon to shop may have to take public transportation into downtown Chicago because it's flat out inconvenient to take your car (the same is true in large, dense cities like New York, London, etc).

But this rhetoric is pretty suspicious. It reminds me of the excuses that people use to ban teenagers from every imaginable location....parks, malls, movie theaters, even public beaches. The idea that two or more teenagers without adult supervision are OBVIOUSLY up to something, and are very intimidating, even in a space that they have every right to be in, or would be relatively well observed by security guards and employees. This obviously has nothing to do with what teenagers (or poor people or minorities or whomever) are ACTUALLY going to do. In the vast majority of cases, these groups of people do absolutely nothing that warrants the assumption that where they are is unsafe. This has to do with preconceived notions of any given group (ex; that people who take the bus for any reason are too poor to buy things, that people who take the bus are by virtue of likely being working class or a minority inherently prone to violence against white suburban day-trippers, etc). I'd say that it does have a LOT to do with 'those people.' Certain people don't want to have to look at 'those people' when they're enjoying their day, even if 'those people' haven' even given them a second glance.

This is very interesting as it reminds me of a situation that is happening in the Seattle area right now. We are just starting to build trains through the region. The current train runs from the airport to Seattle, but another line is planned to go to Bellevue, a city across the water to the East, known for the rich people who live there.
A big name in Bellevue is Kemper Freeman, who owns a lot of property over there, and thus has a lot of money and say over what happens in the city. He is hugely anti-public transit. This is a quote from him several years ago. (For context, Southcenter Mall is in an area with many poor and non-white residents. The future light rail would connect these two places.)
"When you walk through the [Southcenter] mall, the way the customer dresses just to shop there — the light blue and pink hair curlers, the shoes that flop, flop, flop along — it's a completely different customer." (http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20050424&slug=jdl24)
Here's an article talking about how he would like to prevent light rail all together, but if he can't do that, then he would put it underground in Bellevue or put it on the outskirts of the city. http://seattletransitblog.com/2009/09/15/kemper-fights-to-keep-rail-from-bellevue/
In fact, just doing a search on Seattle Transit Blog (which, admittedly is very pro-public transit) and you will find many similar articles.
Just thought you might find this interesting.

I lived in Columbus and think COTA is awesome! Ohio State students got to ride the bus for free (which was always a blast at Halloween), and COTA had special promotions, like taking the bus to the zoo, which got you a discount on the zoo ticket and saved on parking. I was very impressed with the bus system: clean, regular, and accessible--there are even bike racks on the fronts of the buses. All kinds of people took the bus: profs, lawyers, students, the blind, the elderly, everyone. I miss COTA, especially the number 2, which runs down High Street and has buses every 10 minutes. That one bus line gets you to most of the cool places in Columbus.

That said, I can see it both ways. In America, there's certainly a stereotype about bus riders, and I doubt these developers ride the bus with any frequency, so it feels natural to me that the position against the bus station would be inflected with a certain amount of class and race prejudice. (I'm from the Alabama, and I'll note that the 55th anniversary of the Montgomery bus boycott is this week )

But I can also see that enough people actually use COTA that it would increase pedestrian traffic considerably. But I'd think that'd be a good thing. Columbus has a thriving downtown and a fantastic bus system. It's a natural fit for there to be a downtown terminal. Oi, I miss both!

I think it is *very* important to have bus stops in central, accessible locations.

It's great for people with disabilities/mobility issues, parents with very young children, and elderly people.

The only thing I wonder, reading this article, is whether they could have been concerned about blocking the pavement?

I used to work at a building where there were major bus stops on each side of the street out the front of the building.

It was great for catching the bus to/from work, but if you needed to cross the road, or walk past all the people queuing for the bus, it could be very difficult (just because there was no room left on the footpath, and people wouldn't move out of your way to let you walk past because they were worried about losing their place in the bus queue.)

I found it especially difficult when I had an injury that limited my mobility and how long I could walk/stand for.

There were definitely days I thought "I wish all these people would stop blocking the footpath, I'm in pain and I need to get past so that I can hobble back to my car. (In too much pain to walk home from the bus stop.)"

And THAT is one of the things I disliked about living in the US (rather than my native Europe): That people assumed that I was poor for using buses- rather than environmentally conscious and... just NORMAL. The way doing something that is harming the environment (driving a car) is deemed NORMAL and everything else deviant bothered the hell out of me. Of course the fact that poor people are looked down upon, bothered me as well- but we have that problem too.

Interesting - from reading some of your posts it seems that in America, people who use the bus are more the poor and outcast people? Making going on the bus like a stigma?

Here in New Zealand, using the bus is promoted as a good thing (saving environment/time etc) and I can't think of anywhere in our country that would stigmatize you for using the bus.

This kinda thing just shows that what we consider normal and natural, even praised here, is seen in a completely different light elsewhere

Ok, so while I understand completely and generally agree with most of the analysis here, let me play devil's advocate for a second.

In my small city, the bus transfer station really *is* a hot spot for sketchy characters, despite the fact that it isn't in a "bad neighborhood" or anything (it's located downtown). For whatever reason, it's a kind of gathering spot, usually itself crowded, but also with large groups of people hanging out on all the nearby corners. And honestly, I'm generally uncomfortable going near the bus station, and I try to avoid it. Almost all of the people who are not in the bus station boundaries (and some who are), are kind of intimidating. There are a lot of panhandlers, people who are obviously mentally ill, people who can be aggressive (I say this from experience and from the many fights and assaults that take place there), and large groups of very rowdy young men. I'm not familiar with bus stations other places so I don't know how common this is. But, I know that it has all but killed off the businesses in the nearby area. The atmosphere of the area *does* drive away customers.

On the other hand, in my experience, most of the bus riders are average, law-abiding citizens just trying to get where they're going. The problem is that there's a minority of people (but a sufficient number to cause problems) who are "trouble-makers" and who tend to congregate near the bus station, making it an unpleasant place to go. It isn't the "fault" of the bus station, but at the same time, it *is* connected to the bus station. And, in that sense, I understand business owners' concerns. How do you fix a situation like this?

As a former Columbus dweller (lived there for 13 years) before moving to Chicago, I found the COTA system there to be inconvenient and cumbersome at best, downright disgusting at worst. One thing I love about Chicago is that one can get just about anywhere using the buses and trains, and no one frowns upon you for doing so. If anything, it's better to ride the buses and trains. Fewer cars to clog up the already gridlocked streets!

When I lived in Columbus, any efforts to improve the public transportation system were soundly voted down. It's definitely more attractive and convenient to drive there, and as long as it is, then the infrastructure will never improve.

Where I live (South Australia) there is a bus transfer hub right next to a major shopping centre, Tea Tree Plaza. The bus hub and shopping centre compliment each other wonderfully. In the evenings, especially late-night-shopping Thursdays, there are Christian groups and police cruisers to deal with the groups of noisy teens and aggressive young males. Everything is really close, and if you want to avoid the 'bogans' or 'deros' (poor people) you just don't catch the J1 buses, which continue on to the outer, poorer suburbs. The buses are crammed full every morning of city workers and uni students; only during the day do the elderly (who ride for free 9am-3pm) and kids on school holidays use the buses. Yeah, TTP is often chock full of groups of teens stopping off to spend pocket money/hang out and eat fast food, but really, it is NOT a problem, and I for one am really happy that they have a safe place to go. The bus/shops arrangement is fantastic and I have spent lots of money in the times when y buses didn't quite align so I had some spare time to nip into the shops. I love it.

Hello the introduction to this article about the previous discussion of the marginality of transit riders left out that the post of my photographs of the Hamden Plaza were the basis of that discussion.

I lived in Columbus for over 7 years and rode the bus for most of those years through these supposedly "intimidating" transfer stations. If you ask me, the drunken crowds coming out of the sporting arenas downtown are much more intimidating than any group waiting for a bus. Yet, no one mentioned that when the city decided to relocate the baseball stadium downtown. Hum - large crowds of (drunk) white men - not intimidating. Smaller crowds of black men and women on their way to work - very intimidating. This is COLUMBUS OHIO people, not NYC or DC. People don't just hang out at bus stations. One of the busiest transfer station is right in front of the state capitol building. If you think black people are intimidating, then yes, these crowds are intimidating. If you don't think black people are intimidating, then these crowds are not intimidating. I was never once asked for money (or harassed) at a bus stop or a bus transfer in downtown Columbus--Not one time in SEVEN YEARS (with almost daily commuting).

I would much rather pass through a small group of people waiting for the bus than be caught on the sidewalk after the Blue Jackets game.

I'n not going to be a "blog hog" here as I was in the previous discussion with my photographs. However is another example of marginalizing bus riders, again not in a suburban auto-centric designed mall as often is the case, but in a “new urbanism” town center mall design at Reston Town Center, VA outside of D.C. which I visited in the fall of 2005. There are no bus stops anywhere along the traditional sidewalks as there would be in a traditional city centers. Instead the bus stop is at the edge of the development as shown on the bottom of this map. Many middle class people come to the Reston Center to take the bus to the Metro-Station for jobs, etc. in downtown D.C. The RC stores lose additional business from these commuters by not having the bus stop located near them.

http://www.restontowncenter.com/pdf/RestonTownCenter-MapListing.pdf

It's all about perception, isn't it? I came across this site after a 'google alert' to my email on the term 'short north'. I live downtown in the trendy Short North area where bus stops and quaint shops are all part of the cool urban atmosphere and parking is a premium. Meters have gone up. A homeless guy will direct you to an open parking spot and expect a tip from you after you've parked. That's the only 'begging' I experience. I'm more intimidated by the parking valets that have infested the area and will run you down if you're in their way as they run to get someone's car. And one more thing: Buses also run to the big retail outdoor/indoor mall on the far East side partly-owned by Victoria's Secret mogul Les Wexner and California's Governator. (Arnold's wife, Maria, prefers to shop in the ShoNo when they're in town.) So when you're at Easton in on a weekend evening, the place is overrun with 'mall rat' kids and the police presence is huge. That, again, is more intimidating to me than any group of poor or environmentally-conscious bus-riders waiting at a stop.

This doesn't add much substance to the discussion, but I thought I'd note that in his book "Stuff White People Like" (based on the blog of the same name, where he pokes fun at young, white, American, upper-middle-class hipsters), Christian Lander wrote a piece on how the aforementioned people like "Public Transportation that is Not a Bus." Basically, we're jealous of European metros and such, and will ride subways or trams in a city, but won't get on a bus. I remember it striking a chord with me (I'm American but lived in Europe for 4 years), because there is definitely a bus stigma here in the US (especially outside of cities) that is much more widespread than elsewhere.

Those are some pretty strong assumptions you're making...

I live downtown in a city about the same size as Columbus and I don't usually ride the bus because I walk to and from work. However, I walk past many bus stops every day, often at rush hour, and they can be very annoying. Just yesterday I had to practically PUSH my way through a crowded sidewalk of people waiting for the bus -- see, at most stops they don't all fit in the bus shelter and once they spot the bus, even if it's 10 blocks down the road, everyone starts heading for the curb and packing the sidewalk. At a busy bus stop, this happens almost constantly during afternoon rush hour. This article is not about a small bus stop, but a "transit center" that is a hub for transfers. For practical reasons, a presumably busy "transit center" shouldn't be placed on the same sidewalk used by shoppers unless it is well-designed to accomodate foot traffic and hordes of people standing in the sidewalk.

The real point is simple - whether or not bus stations are a "bother" to upper class shoppers is irrelevant. Poor people depend on buses to get around and have a right to use them in ways that are most convenient for them. If people are uncomfortable dealing with poor people who don't look like them, they need to develop some coping skills. The problem is theirs, not those of the poor. Structural discrimination or manipulation of zoning/transportation codes to make the problem "disappear" is utterly reprehensible, particularly because these tactics are often directed at people with less access to the kind of legal resources they might use to defend their interests. Columbus has a history of this kind of genteel discrimination and deserves to be called out on it.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/12/01/rosa.parks.anniversary/index.html?hpt=C1

All these tributes to Rosa Parks Civil Rights action each year are ironic. They are often made by groups and people who do not care at all about bus services now and don't ride the bus or by bus operators like those of First Transit of Cleveland that has transit management contracts all over the country who provide lousy services. And most bus riders are so far from any kind of protest about how they are treated!

One more thing on the stigma/stereotype of the bus (and the subway, in places that have them):
It occurs to me that, in addition to everything else, perhaps there's bit of an infrastructure maintenance factor to it. It's hard to explain, but it seems like when people express horror at the bus it's partly about the environment of the buses and stations themselves— they're often kinda gross (due to poor maintenance)... and then it's like it sort of rubs off on the riders in their minds: as if by putting themselves there, it's like they're saying they don't mind the grossness... or that their standards are so low they don't even recognize it as gross. So they associate the "scummiest" people with that icky environment, and vice versa. It's a little thing, but I always notice it a lot,* so I thought I'd add it.

___
*I grew up in NYC, so I've had the "ew/omg, how did you stand/survive the subway?!" type conversation many times in my travels over the years.

Hi. I think your article contains a misunderstanding of the original article. Developers are against "unsavory" people waiting out on the street. In my reading of the Columbus Dispatch article, they are IN FAVOR of a new transit station, because it would move passengers and transferees inside (off the street, out of visibility). From the article:

"It's an issue raised at least twice in a 10-year Downtown strategic plan endorsed by the Downtown Commission and the Columbus City Council this year. That plan calls for a Downtown transit center where people can wait for buses protected from the weather and away from High Street."

If the new station actually provides a place to wait out of the elements and efficiently change bus routes without crossing street traffic, it seems like a win-win situation for transit passengers and developers.

Of course this doesn't solve the main subject of your article -- that developers don't want "unsavory" people on the street, and what "unsavory" is code for.

Bus stations and bus travel are thoroughly associated with black people and with poor people.

Consider the "Rosa Parks Transportation Center", Located a block from Dr. Martin Luther King Blvd.

I'm going to briefly mention that when MLK gets out past the city into the suburbs, it becomes Immokalee, and when it gets to the shorefront area, it becomes McGregor. Among its attractions is the only soup kitchen (out of five) I have not returned to.

This is just another example of how LGBT's are marginalized by transit.