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	<title>Comments on: Comparing Socioeconomic Mobility Across OECD Countries</title>
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	<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2010/02/18/comparing-socioeconomic-mobility-across-oecd-countries/</link>
	<description>Sociological Images encourages people to exercise and develop their sociological imaginations with discussions of compelling visuals that span the breadth of sociological inquiry.</description>
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		<title>By: The gap between the bottom and top grows ever larger - Business, Finance, and Investing - Page 5 - City-Data Forum</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2010/02/18/comparing-socioeconomic-mobility-across-oecd-countries/comment-page-1/#comment-333360</link>
		<dc:creator>The gap between the bottom and top grows ever larger - Business, Finance, and Investing - Page 5 - City-Data Forum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jul 2010 20:38:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=20477#comment-333360</guid>
		<description>[...]  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]  [...]</p>
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		<title>By: All out inequality &#171; Dark Purple Moon</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2010/02/18/comparing-socioeconomic-mobility-across-oecd-countries/comment-page-1/#comment-229380</link>
		<dc:creator>All out inequality &#171; Dark Purple Moon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 22:15:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=20477#comment-229380</guid>
		<description>[...] browsing through one of my top blogs &#8211; Sociological Images I came across this graph comparing socioeconmic mobility across OECD countries. Taken from Sociological Images (in itself taken from the New York Times).  Using educational [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] browsing through one of my top blogs &#8211; Sociological Images I came across this graph comparing socioeconmic mobility across OECD countries. Taken from Sociological Images (in itself taken from the New York Times).  Using educational [...]</p>
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		<title>By: b</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2010/02/18/comparing-socioeconomic-mobility-across-oecd-countries/comment-page-1/#comment-223623</link>
		<dc:creator>b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 06:42:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=20477#comment-223623</guid>
		<description>But in humans, which unlike other primates have an income which is what&#039;s being used here, a woman&#039;s income is less likely to be tied to her social status than a man&#039;s. A wife generally has equal social status to her husband, even when her income is zero. Unless you find some non-income way to quantify social status, I don&#039;t think the effect would be easily interpretable - for example, wives of men with high-status jobs are less likely to have to work than wives of men with blue collar jobs, so you&#039;re going to see a lot of children whose mothers make $0 but who make a lot themselves while children of mothers who pull in more than half the family&#039;s income are lower. But that doesn&#039;t mean at all that the children&#039;s income isn&#039;t tied to the parent&#039;s income.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But in humans, which unlike other primates have an income which is what&#8217;s being used here, a woman&#8217;s income is less likely to be tied to her social status than a man&#8217;s. A wife generally has equal social status to her husband, even when her income is zero. Unless you find some non-income way to quantify social status, I don&#8217;t think the effect would be easily interpretable &#8211; for example, wives of men with high-status jobs are less likely to have to work than wives of men with blue collar jobs, so you&#8217;re going to see a lot of children whose mothers make $0 but who make a lot themselves while children of mothers who pull in more than half the family&#8217;s income are lower. But that doesn&#8217;t mean at all that the children&#8217;s income isn&#8217;t tied to the parent&#8217;s income.</p>
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		<title>By: Brooks</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2010/02/18/comparing-socioeconomic-mobility-across-oecd-countries/comment-page-1/#comment-222166</link>
		<dc:creator>Brooks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Feb 2010 14:55:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=20477#comment-222166</guid>
		<description>&quot;Merit, presumably, plays a greater role in your educational and class attainment in these cases.&quot;

So these days we go data, representation, interpretation, wild speculation?

Why presume that differences in the impact of merit are at work here?  Why not demographics (how much variation is there among peers of the same generation?), geography (are children more or less likely to move rural to urban or vice versa), education (are children more or less likely to match parents&#039; education levels), legal considerations (what impact to inheritance or other inter-generational taxes play?), or a host of other things?

It&#039;s interesting data, and I&#039;d love to explore the root causes more.  But the conclusion seems really spurious.  I think most people would agree that a lower correlation (or elasticity, which is *very* different) is more socially desirable. But maybe it&#039;s worth following the old school of actually analyzing the data and testing hypotheses before moving on to prescription?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Merit, presumably, plays a greater role in your educational and class attainment in these cases.&#8221;</p>
<p>So these days we go data, representation, interpretation, wild speculation?</p>
<p>Why presume that differences in the impact of merit are at work here?  Why not demographics (how much variation is there among peers of the same generation?), geography (are children more or less likely to move rural to urban or vice versa), education (are children more or less likely to match parents&#8217; education levels), legal considerations (what impact to inheritance or other inter-generational taxes play?), or a host of other things?</p>
<p>It&#8217;s interesting data, and I&#8217;d love to explore the root causes more.  But the conclusion seems really spurious.  I think most people would agree that a lower correlation (or elasticity, which is *very* different) is more socially desirable. But maybe it&#8217;s worth following the old school of actually analyzing the data and testing hypotheses before moving on to prescription?</p>
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		<title>By: shale</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2010/02/18/comparing-socioeconomic-mobility-across-oecd-countries/comment-page-1/#comment-221759</link>
		<dc:creator>shale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Feb 2010 21:04:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=20477#comment-221759</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s arguing that value arises from diversity rather than talent. So free market capitalism is great because it allows the most diversity to make the biggest difference. 

The article offers a rather cunning argument against the logic or meritocracy, and in the end, it does end up condemning the bonuses paid out to wall-street bankers. In short, they do not add the scale of value to their companies that they claim to (in fact it would be impossible for them to) and so do not deserve the exorbitant bonuses; the myth that they do add that value derives from the rather naive society wide myth of merit.

The author and webpage is published by people that I happen to rabidly disagree with on many issues (like capitalism and the free market), but at least as far as starting to get knowledge, skill, society and social interaction right, if the idea catches on, it could be a big step for the right :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s arguing that value arises from diversity rather than talent. So free market capitalism is great because it allows the most diversity to make the biggest difference. </p>
<p>The article offers a rather cunning argument against the logic or meritocracy, and in the end, it does end up condemning the bonuses paid out to wall-street bankers. In short, they do not add the scale of value to their companies that they claim to (in fact it would be impossible for them to) and so do not deserve the exorbitant bonuses; the myth that they do add that value derives from the rather naive society wide myth of merit.</p>
<p>The author and webpage is published by people that I happen to rabidly disagree with on many issues (like capitalism and the free market), but at least as far as starting to get knowledge, skill, society and social interaction right, if the idea catches on, it could be a big step for the right :)</p>
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		<title>By: shale</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2010/02/18/comparing-socioeconomic-mobility-across-oecd-countries/comment-page-1/#comment-221755</link>
		<dc:creator>shale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Feb 2010 20:56:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=20477#comment-221755</guid>
		<description>Damn. Despite my visceral dislike for the term “value,” that is one clever article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Damn. Despite my visceral dislike for the term “value,” that is one clever article.</p>
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		<title>By: shale</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2010/02/18/comparing-socioeconomic-mobility-across-oecd-countries/comment-page-1/#comment-221754</link>
		<dc:creator>shale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Feb 2010 20:56:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=20477#comment-221754</guid>
		<description>Woops. This comment was meant to go below. I&#039;ve re-posted it there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Woops. This comment was meant to go below. I&#8217;ve re-posted it there.</p>
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		<title>By: shale</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2010/02/18/comparing-socioeconomic-mobility-across-oecd-countries/comment-page-1/#comment-221642</link>
		<dc:creator>shale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Feb 2010 17:59:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=20477#comment-221642</guid>
		<description>Damn. Despite my visceral dislike for the term &quot;value,&quot; that is one clever article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Damn. Despite my visceral dislike for the term &#8220;value,&#8221; that is one clever article.</p>
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		<title>By: AR</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2010/02/18/comparing-socioeconomic-mobility-across-oecd-countries/comment-page-1/#comment-221637</link>
		<dc:creator>AR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Feb 2010 17:55:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=20477#comment-221637</guid>
		<description>Briefly, that rewarding people based on their ability to create value for others rather than &quot;merit&quot; is good because the things society regards as meritorious are only occasionally connected to one&#039;s ability to make other people better off, and are less evenly distributed in the population, and so rewarding merit would result in a poorer, more hierarchical society.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Briefly, that rewarding people based on their ability to create value for others rather than &#8220;merit&#8221; is good because the things society regards as meritorious are only occasionally connected to one&#8217;s ability to make other people better off, and are less evenly distributed in the population, and so rewarding merit would result in a poorer, more hierarchical society.</p>
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		<title>By: shale</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2010/02/18/comparing-socioeconomic-mobility-across-oecd-countries/comment-page-1/#comment-221631</link>
		<dc:creator>shale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Feb 2010 17:42:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=20477#comment-221631</guid>
		<description>Without the equation and variables from which they derived those statistics (and potentially, the questions asked, how and why), it&#039;s hard to tell what exactly is being measured. 

Commenting on the `why&#039; should probably not proceed before we figure out the `what&#039;.

That said, the caption for the graph in the Times article explains their coefficients as follows: &quot;The higher the value, the greater is the persistence of earnings across generations, thus the lower is the intergenerational earnings mobility.&quot; 

For example, if the statistics are estimated from after-tax estimates of income, the lower coefficients could be due to anything from intergenerational market mobility to government transfers and progressive taxation regimes. 

Or, depending on what the authors controlled for, it could be measuring rural/urban inequality and migration patterns. This is exactly the kind of thing the second graph is supposed to be taking into account. See how Italy slid from one end to the other--that suggests that this is probably a major source of inequality in Italy. It&#039;s probably different in other countries for different people. 

Folks should consider going and reading the articles cited in the footnote to the Times article. I&#039;m sure they probably have something to say about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Without the equation and variables from which they derived those statistics (and potentially, the questions asked, how and why), it&#8217;s hard to tell what exactly is being measured. </p>
<p>Commenting on the `why&#8217; should probably not proceed before we figure out the `what&#8217;.</p>
<p>That said, the caption for the graph in the Times article explains their coefficients as follows: &#8220;The higher the value, the greater is the persistence of earnings across generations, thus the lower is the intergenerational earnings mobility.&#8221; </p>
<p>For example, if the statistics are estimated from after-tax estimates of income, the lower coefficients could be due to anything from intergenerational market mobility to government transfers and progressive taxation regimes. </p>
<p>Or, depending on what the authors controlled for, it could be measuring rural/urban inequality and migration patterns. This is exactly the kind of thing the second graph is supposed to be taking into account. See how Italy slid from one end to the other&#8211;that suggests that this is probably a major source of inequality in Italy. It&#8217;s probably different in other countries for different people. </p>
<p>Folks should consider going and reading the articles cited in the footnote to the Times article. I&#8217;m sure they probably have something to say about it.</p>
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		<title>By: Kat</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2010/02/18/comparing-socioeconomic-mobility-across-oecd-countries/comment-page-1/#comment-221527</link>
		<dc:creator>Kat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Feb 2010 14:32:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=20477#comment-221527</guid>
		<description>errr... &#039;change that&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>errr&#8230; &#8216;change that&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: Kat</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2010/02/18/comparing-socioeconomic-mobility-across-oecd-countries/comment-page-1/#comment-221525</link>
		<dc:creator>Kat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Feb 2010 14:32:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=20477#comment-221525</guid>
		<description>Second try: ANY CHANCE at least ONE SINGLE COMMENTER might address the actual &quot;why&quot; and &quot;how could we chance that&quot; (taking it at face value)?!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Second try: ANY CHANCE at least ONE SINGLE COMMENTER might address the actual &#8220;why&#8221; and &#8220;how could we chance that&#8221; (taking it at face value)?!</p>
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		<title>By: E</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2010/02/18/comparing-socioeconomic-mobility-across-oecd-countries/comment-page-1/#comment-221522</link>
		<dc:creator>E</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Feb 2010 14:25:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=20477#comment-221522</guid>
		<description>While I agree that there are usually differences by region, it is a major assumption to say the correlation would be lower and not higher.  In fact, more variance does not generally do anything to the size of a correlation. It decreases the statistical significance.  So basically all you are saying is that there would be a higher statistical significance, more statistical power had they separated the US by region.  But the correlation probably would be lower for some regions and higher for others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I agree that there are usually differences by region, it is a major assumption to say the correlation would be lower and not higher.  In fact, more variance does not generally do anything to the size of a correlation. It decreases the statistical significance.  So basically all you are saying is that there would be a higher statistical significance, more statistical power had they separated the US by region.  But the correlation probably would be lower for some regions and higher for others.</p>
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		<title>By: PLW</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2010/02/18/comparing-socioeconomic-mobility-across-oecd-countries/comment-page-1/#comment-221510</link>
		<dc:creator>PLW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Feb 2010 13:44:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=20477#comment-221510</guid>
		<description>At least according to the label on the graph, this doesn&#039;t have anything to do with correlation coefficients (directly). It&#039;s simply the elasticity of childrens&#039; earnings with respect to parents&#039; income. So a estimate of 0.5 means that if parents; earnings increase 10% (all else equal), we&#039;d expect their childrens&#039; earning to increase 5%. That doesn&#039;t tell us anything about the degree of unexplained variance across these countries (which surely varies dramatically, as well).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At least according to the label on the graph, this doesn&#8217;t have anything to do with correlation coefficients (directly). It&#8217;s simply the elasticity of childrens&#8217; earnings with respect to parents&#8217; income. So a estimate of 0.5 means that if parents; earnings increase 10% (all else equal), we&#8217;d expect their childrens&#8217; earning to increase 5%. That doesn&#8217;t tell us anything about the degree of unexplained variance across these countries (which surely varies dramatically, as well).</p>
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		<title>By: Kat</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2010/02/18/comparing-socioeconomic-mobility-across-oecd-countries/comment-page-1/#comment-221484</link>
		<dc:creator>Kat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Feb 2010 12:00:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=20477#comment-221484</guid>
		<description>I just started reading the article- couldn&#039;t finish. Could you please summarize the reason WHY this is supposedly a good thing? Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just started reading the article- couldn&#8217;t finish. Could you please summarize the reason WHY this is supposedly a good thing? Thanks!</p>
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