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	<title>Comments on: The Relativity of Feminist Liberation</title>
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	<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/12/08/the-relativity-of-feminist-liberation/</link>
	<description>Sociological Images encourages people to exercise and develop their sociological imaginations with discussions of compelling visuals that span the breadth of sociological inquiry.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 03:26:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Mujeres del DF piden transporte rosa: encuesta &#124; Animal Politico</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/12/08/the-relativity-of-feminist-liberation/comment-page-1/#comment-543296</link>
		<dc:creator>Mujeres del DF piden transporte rosa: encuesta &#124; Animal Politico</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jan 2012 14:01:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=17718#comment-543296</guid>
		<description>[...] década después, los expertos en varias partes del mundo siguen preguntándose si esta metodología es la mejor solución para combatir la violencia contra la mujer. &#8220;¿Es [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] década después, los expertos en varias partes del mundo siguen preguntándose si esta metodología es la mejor solución para combatir la violencia contra la mujer. &#8220;¿Es [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Matt K</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/12/08/the-relativity-of-feminist-liberation/comment-page-1/#comment-172355</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Dec 2009 22:54:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=17718#comment-172355</guid>
		<description>&quot;All these comments make me wonder: if I were a taxi driver, am I being victimized by all these points-of-view by women assuming that I would assault them? Is it fair that I am having to bear their negative perceptions because of a fear of something that never happened to them because of me? … or are they painting all taxi drivers (or male taxi drivers) with the same broad brush?&quot;

No.

Women are not victimizing men when they consider their own safety in public. As many have said, it is not an ideal situation we have where men think it is okay to sexually assault women under any circumstances. I see the parallels you are trying to draw here -- they are not valid, because men DO victimize women all the time. This is not some made-up paranoia feeding into &quot;reverse sexism&quot; against men. This is real, and I think men often have a hard time wrapping their head around that, because they don&#039;t deal with it on a daily basis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;All these comments make me wonder: if I were a taxi driver, am I being victimized by all these points-of-view by women assuming that I would assault them? Is it fair that I am having to bear their negative perceptions because of a fear of something that never happened to them because of me? … or are they painting all taxi drivers (or male taxi drivers) with the same broad brush?&#8221;</p>
<p>No.</p>
<p>Women are not victimizing men when they consider their own safety in public. As many have said, it is not an ideal situation we have where men think it is okay to sexually assault women under any circumstances. I see the parallels you are trying to draw here &#8212; they are not valid, because men DO victimize women all the time. This is not some made-up paranoia feeding into &#8220;reverse sexism&#8221; against men. This is real, and I think men often have a hard time wrapping their head around that, because they don&#8217;t deal with it on a daily basis.</p>
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		<title>By: Currence</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/12/08/the-relativity-of-feminist-liberation/comment-page-1/#comment-166155</link>
		<dc:creator>Currence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Dec 2009 21:41:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=17718#comment-166155</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m male and I&#039;d prefer to take a taxi driven by a woman for safety reasons.  I don&#039;t fear male taxi drivers, so I wouldn&#039;t expend any real amount of energy trying to satisfy this preference, but it&#039;s a preference I have nonetheless.  Here, gender, something I otherwise don&#039;t care about, is an indirect way to get at something I do care about: propensity for violence.  Yeah, it&#039;s a shame that &#039;male&#039; tracks &#039;violent&#039; so well, but it does and I live accordingly (which is to say: I live statistically), and I don&#039;t think that this is objectionable except where so living itself perpetuates a different oppressive discriminatory system that is worse.  (So, I would not support a white-driver-only or rich-driver-only company, even if &#039;white&#039; or &#039;rich&#039; tracked &#039;non-violent&#039;, because I&#039;m more worried about the negative effects of white/rich privilege.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m male and I&#8217;d prefer to take a taxi driven by a woman for safety reasons.  I don&#8217;t fear male taxi drivers, so I wouldn&#8217;t expend any real amount of energy trying to satisfy this preference, but it&#8217;s a preference I have nonetheless.  Here, gender, something I otherwise don&#8217;t care about, is an indirect way to get at something I do care about: propensity for violence.  Yeah, it&#8217;s a shame that &#8216;male&#8217; tracks &#8216;violent&#8217; so well, but it does and I live accordingly (which is to say: I live statistically), and I don&#8217;t think that this is objectionable except where so living itself perpetuates a different oppressive discriminatory system that is worse.  (So, I would not support a white-driver-only or rich-driver-only company, even if &#8216;white&#8217; or &#8216;rich&#8217; tracked &#8216;non-violent&#8217;, because I&#8217;m more worried about the negative effects of white/rich privilege.)</p>
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		<title>By: Sonic</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/12/08/the-relativity-of-feminist-liberation/comment-page-1/#comment-165645</link>
		<dc:creator>Sonic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Dec 2009 03:09:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=17718#comment-165645</guid>
		<description>Seriously.  It&#039;s like the &quot;reverse racism&quot; argument - who holds the power?  Men do, in more ways than one.  

Sure women can be violent, but a) I can physically hold my own against most women, but not with most men and b) let&#039;s be honest here.  Most of the violence against women is from men.  Not all men are violent jerkwads and there ARE some women who are violent, but statistically, it&#039;s men women have to worry about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seriously.  It&#8217;s like the &#8220;reverse racism&#8221; argument &#8211; who holds the power?  Men do, in more ways than one.  </p>
<p>Sure women can be violent, but a) I can physically hold my own against most women, but not with most men and b) let&#8217;s be honest here.  Most of the violence against women is from men.  Not all men are violent jerkwads and there ARE some women who are violent, but statistically, it&#8217;s men women have to worry about.</p>
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		<title>By: Hazel Stone</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/12/08/the-relativity-of-feminist-liberation/comment-page-1/#comment-165275</link>
		<dc:creator>Hazel Stone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Dec 2009 14:33:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=17718#comment-165275</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m getting really sick of these men&#039;s rights jackasses. Look,the vast majority of violence, particularly sexual violence is caused by men. So let&#039;s not spout a bunch of nonsense about double standards. There&#039;s no society wide problem of men living with constant concern about their safety from women. C&#039;mon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m getting really sick of these men&#8217;s rights jackasses. Look,the vast majority of violence, particularly sexual violence is caused by men. So let&#8217;s not spout a bunch of nonsense about double standards. There&#8217;s no society wide problem of men living with constant concern about their safety from women. C&#8217;mon.</p>
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		<title>By: cubicalgirl</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/12/08/the-relativity-of-feminist-liberation/comment-page-1/#comment-165272</link>
		<dc:creator>cubicalgirl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Dec 2009 14:27:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=17718#comment-165272</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think anyone&#039;s saying women are never violent or all men are violent.  But in my experience as a woman, every time I&#039;ve been harassed (catcalled on the street, unwantedly being hit on, or otherwise made to feel as though my safety were in danger by someone else) it&#039;s a man who has been the source of that.  Are all guys violent rapists just waiting for a chance to attack?  Of course not. But when I&#039;m out alone (especially someplace I don&#039;t know well, which would be when I would be most likely to use a taxi) my safety is my frist consideration.  Getting into a car with someone I don&#039;t know is pretty high on the list of things I don&#039;t do.  Granted, a taxi is different because that&#039;s their job, but at the same time, you still don&#039;t know what&#039;s going to happen.  

Women live their daily lives constatly being told they are in danger.  A lot of it is BS that the media tells us (fear is a great way to sell something), and even though we know that it&#039;s really wearing on the nerves.  If I could take a woman-driven taxi and feel like I could have five minutes to myself where I didn&#039;t have to have my pepper spray in my hand, I&#039;d take it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think anyone&#8217;s saying women are never violent or all men are violent.  But in my experience as a woman, every time I&#8217;ve been harassed (catcalled on the street, unwantedly being hit on, or otherwise made to feel as though my safety were in danger by someone else) it&#8217;s a man who has been the source of that.  Are all guys violent rapists just waiting for a chance to attack?  Of course not. But when I&#8217;m out alone (especially someplace I don&#8217;t know well, which would be when I would be most likely to use a taxi) my safety is my frist consideration.  Getting into a car with someone I don&#8217;t know is pretty high on the list of things I don&#8217;t do.  Granted, a taxi is different because that&#8217;s their job, but at the same time, you still don&#8217;t know what&#8217;s going to happen.  </p>
<p>Women live their daily lives constatly being told they are in danger.  A lot of it is BS that the media tells us (fear is a great way to sell something), and even though we know that it&#8217;s really wearing on the nerves.  If I could take a woman-driven taxi and feel like I could have five minutes to myself where I didn&#8217;t have to have my pepper spray in my hand, I&#8217;d take it.</p>
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		<title>By: John Yum</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/12/08/the-relativity-of-feminist-liberation/comment-page-1/#comment-164769</link>
		<dc:creator>John Yum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Dec 2009 19:22:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=17718#comment-164769</guid>
		<description>Yes. Thank you. I decided not to add that point to my points, but you are right.

I don&#039;t understand the logic used by some of the commenters above. It seems like they are using the logic of, &quot;Male cab drivers have attacked/harassed me/someone I know. Wouldn&#039;t it be nice if we didn&#039;t have to deal with male cab drivers?&quot; If evidence of violence from female cab drivers were exposed, then would they say that women shouldn&#039;t even use cabs; that women shouldn&#039;t drive cabs; that it was some anomalous situation? Or is it just convenient for some of the above commenters to appear to paint all men (not just male cab drivers) as &quot;violent&quot; and wanting to harass women? (I am taking as evidence the dearth of comments saying that not all men are bad that the commenters above feel that it&#039;s okay to discriminate against half of the population.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes. Thank you. I decided not to add that point to my points, but you are right.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t understand the logic used by some of the commenters above. It seems like they are using the logic of, &#8220;Male cab drivers have attacked/harassed me/someone I know. Wouldn&#8217;t it be nice if we didn&#8217;t have to deal with male cab drivers?&#8221; If evidence of violence from female cab drivers were exposed, then would they say that women shouldn&#8217;t even use cabs; that women shouldn&#8217;t drive cabs; that it was some anomalous situation? Or is it just convenient for some of the above commenters to appear to paint all men (not just male cab drivers) as &#8220;violent&#8221; and wanting to harass women? (I am taking as evidence the dearth of comments saying that not all men are bad that the commenters above feel that it&#8217;s okay to discriminate against half of the population.)</p>
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		<title>By: Grizzly</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/12/08/the-relativity-of-feminist-liberation/comment-page-1/#comment-164688</link>
		<dc:creator>Grizzly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Dec 2009 16:51:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=17718#comment-164688</guid>
		<description>I was on a business trip to Mexico City and was told very clearly never to get into one of the green cabs because they are privately owned, and so are not safe for anybody.  The establishment of a female only cab company demonstrates the ongoing and pervasive idea in most societies that the safety of men is unimportant.  

The other problem I have with the idea, and one that is illustrated by the many comments by women stating that they would feel safe in one of these cabs, is the assumption that women cab drivers are inherently not violent or dangerous. This is simply not true, an yet the dichotomy persists: Men = bad, Women = good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was on a business trip to Mexico City and was told very clearly never to get into one of the green cabs because they are privately owned, and so are not safe for anybody.  The establishment of a female only cab company demonstrates the ongoing and pervasive idea in most societies that the safety of men is unimportant.  </p>
<p>The other problem I have with the idea, and one that is illustrated by the many comments by women stating that they would feel safe in one of these cabs, is the assumption that women cab drivers are inherently not violent or dangerous. This is simply not true, an yet the dichotomy persists: Men = bad, Women = good.</p>
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		<title>By: John Yum</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/12/08/the-relativity-of-feminist-liberation/comment-page-1/#comment-164603</link>
		<dc:creator>John Yum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Dec 2009 13:50:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=17718#comment-164603</guid>
		<description>Yes. Thank you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes. Thank you.</p>
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		<title>By: John Yum</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/12/08/the-relativity-of-feminist-liberation/comment-page-1/#comment-164601</link>
		<dc:creator>John Yum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Dec 2009 13:49:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=17718#comment-164601</guid>
		<description>So... do you mean that licensed cab drivers were not dangerous to women passengers, while unlicensed cab drivers were? Then doesn&#039;t that just make for an argument for better policing of unlicensed taxis?

... as a side note, at least while I was living in the UK, the reason for the elitism among the London cab drivers was because of the supposedly very difficult set of mental navigation ability that London cab drivers were supposed to be able to show when getting licensed. Mostly only native Londoners were able to make the grade. There were even some neural psychology papers written about neural pathway development (or somesuch) among London cab drivers that was published while I was doing my undergraduate in the UK. I don&#039;t know if that is the still the reason for keeping it an &quot;elite profession&quot;, what with GPS-enabled navigation systems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So&#8230; do you mean that licensed cab drivers were not dangerous to women passengers, while unlicensed cab drivers were? Then doesn&#8217;t that just make for an argument for better policing of unlicensed taxis?</p>
<p>&#8230; as a side note, at least while I was living in the UK, the reason for the elitism among the London cab drivers was because of the supposedly very difficult set of mental navigation ability that London cab drivers were supposed to be able to show when getting licensed. Mostly only native Londoners were able to make the grade. There were even some neural psychology papers written about neural pathway development (or somesuch) among London cab drivers that was published while I was doing my undergraduate in the UK. I don&#8217;t know if that is the still the reason for keeping it an &#8220;elite profession&#8221;, what with GPS-enabled navigation systems.</p>
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		<title>By: John Yum</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/12/08/the-relativity-of-feminist-liberation/comment-page-1/#comment-164599</link>
		<dc:creator>John Yum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Dec 2009 13:45:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=17718#comment-164599</guid>
		<description>Chelsea, the thing you are suggesting would only be testable if you were to have men ride in the cab on the same trip with the same driver, and then again with a mixed group. Each group of people have to be equally &quot;touristy&quot; and likely to be &quot;taken for a ride.&quot;

What you describe is one behavior pattern that you generalize to all other cab drivers; something that didn&#039;t happen after you had a man with you. How do you know that your one &quot;taken for a ride&quot; driver wouldn&#039;t take the opportunity with any group - given the opportunity (using different excuses and justifications)? How do you know that it was &lt;i&gt;because&lt;/i&gt; you had a man with you that you were not subsequently &quot;taken for a ride&quot;? (i.e., How do you know that the other cab drivers weren&#039;t forced to act honestly due to the presence of a male driver? You don&#039;t. You can&#039;t.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chelsea, the thing you are suggesting would only be testable if you were to have men ride in the cab on the same trip with the same driver, and then again with a mixed group. Each group of people have to be equally &#8220;touristy&#8221; and likely to be &#8220;taken for a ride.&#8221;</p>
<p>What you describe is one behavior pattern that you generalize to all other cab drivers; something that didn&#8217;t happen after you had a man with you. How do you know that your one &#8220;taken for a ride&#8221; driver wouldn&#8217;t take the opportunity with any group &#8211; given the opportunity (using different excuses and justifications)? How do you know that it was <i>because</i> you had a man with you that you were not subsequently &#8220;taken for a ride&#8221;? (i.e., How do you know that the other cab drivers weren&#8217;t forced to act honestly due to the presence of a male driver? You don&#8217;t. You can&#8217;t.)</p>
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		<title>By: John Yum</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/12/08/the-relativity-of-feminist-liberation/comment-page-1/#comment-164598</link>
		<dc:creator>John Yum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Dec 2009 13:41:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=17718#comment-164598</guid>
		<description>... so painting a whole half of a population as a source of violence against which you need protection is not discrimination how?

Could you also have said, &quot;Having to worry about Blacks/Mexicans/Asians in one less place (the ride home) seems helpful to me,&quot; and claim that you aren&#039;t being discriminative?

Apparently, discrimination is okay here. It&#039;s like you say &quot;it&#039;s dependent on context.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230; so painting a whole half of a population as a source of violence against which you need protection is not discrimination how?</p>
<p>Could you also have said, &#8220;Having to worry about Blacks/Mexicans/Asians in one less place (the ride home) seems helpful to me,&#8221; and claim that you aren&#8217;t being discriminative?</p>
<p>Apparently, discrimination is okay here. It&#8217;s like you say &#8220;it&#8217;s dependent on context.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: John Yum</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/12/08/the-relativity-of-feminist-liberation/comment-page-1/#comment-164595</link>
		<dc:creator>John Yum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Dec 2009 13:34:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=17718#comment-164595</guid>
		<description>Good point. And what about children? At what point would a boy become barred from riding in a taxi like this? Twelve or thirteen (i.e., when the start to hit puberty) or eighteen to twenty (i.e., the legal age of majority)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point. And what about children? At what point would a boy become barred from riding in a taxi like this? Twelve or thirteen (i.e., when the start to hit puberty) or eighteen to twenty (i.e., the legal age of majority)?</p>
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		<title>By: John Yum</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/12/08/the-relativity-of-feminist-liberation/comment-page-1/#comment-164591</link>
		<dc:creator>John Yum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Dec 2009 13:29:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=17718#comment-164591</guid>
		<description>All these comments make me wonder: if I were a taxi driver, am I being victimized by all these points-of-view by women assuming that I would assault them? Is it fair that I am having to bear their negative perceptions because of a fear of something that never happened to them because of me? ... or are they painting all taxi drivers (or male taxi drivers) with the same broad brush?

See... this is where double-standards come in. It is, on the one hand, important to have individuals accountable for their actions and also bad to stereotype a group of people and then act on that stereotype. It is, on the other hand, important to act to preserve your own safety. When these two things come into conflict, many people raise their voices on the side of safety, and I understand that. However, it occasionally appears that the safety concerns are knee-jerk reactions of moving to a situation of segregation or opposition.

What about looking at other measures, such as a ranking system for taxi drivers, like the 5-star system that Ebay uses for its sellers? Why not have men-only cars in trains for those men that don&#039;t want to face women or a temptation of doing something stupid in front of a woman (this is in addition to women-only cars)? Why not require that taxi companies hire equal ratios of men and women as drivers across all shifts?

In the end, I am asking why segregation of the sexes is considered a good option in this context when it is not considered good in other contexts. And if do you consider it good in this context, then what about the implicit discrimination against men who don&#039;t assault or harass women and don&#039;t condone such action, either?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All these comments make me wonder: if I were a taxi driver, am I being victimized by all these points-of-view by women assuming that I would assault them? Is it fair that I am having to bear their negative perceptions because of a fear of something that never happened to them because of me? &#8230; or are they painting all taxi drivers (or male taxi drivers) with the same broad brush?</p>
<p>See&#8230; this is where double-standards come in. It is, on the one hand, important to have individuals accountable for their actions and also bad to stereotype a group of people and then act on that stereotype. It is, on the other hand, important to act to preserve your own safety. When these two things come into conflict, many people raise their voices on the side of safety, and I understand that. However, it occasionally appears that the safety concerns are knee-jerk reactions of moving to a situation of segregation or opposition.</p>
<p>What about looking at other measures, such as a ranking system for taxi drivers, like the 5-star system that Ebay uses for its sellers? Why not have men-only cars in trains for those men that don&#8217;t want to face women or a temptation of doing something stupid in front of a woman (this is in addition to women-only cars)? Why not require that taxi companies hire equal ratios of men and women as drivers across all shifts?</p>
<p>In the end, I am asking why segregation of the sexes is considered a good option in this context when it is not considered good in other contexts. And if do you consider it good in this context, then what about the implicit discrimination against men who don&#8217;t assault or harass women and don&#8217;t condone such action, either?</p>
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		<title>By: John Yum</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/12/08/the-relativity-of-feminist-liberation/comment-page-1/#comment-164584</link>
		<dc:creator>John Yum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Dec 2009 13:13:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=17718#comment-164584</guid>
		<description>To be pedantic on your example above, if you use college campus rape rates as a piece of evidence that men with bachelor&#039;s degrees &lt;i&gt;do&lt;/i&gt; rape women, you would need to exclude all people who haven&#039;t graduated... since they don&#039;t have bachelor&#039;s degrees yet... and therefore can&#039;t be included.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To be pedantic on your example above, if you use college campus rape rates as a piece of evidence that men with bachelor&#8217;s degrees <i>do</i> rape women, you would need to exclude all people who haven&#8217;t graduated&#8230; since they don&#8217;t have bachelor&#8217;s degrees yet&#8230; and therefore can&#8217;t be included.</p>
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