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	<title>Comments on: Utah OB Practice Declares Its Misogyny Up Front</title>
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	<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/11/20/guest-post-utah-ob-practice-declares-its-misogyny-up-front/</link>
	<description>Sociological Images encourages people to exercise and develop their sociological imaginations with discussions of compelling visuals that span the breadth of sociological inquiry.</description>
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		<title>By: Jackie Yoshi</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/11/20/guest-post-utah-ob-practice-declares-its-misogyny-up-front/comment-page-1/#comment-531936</link>
		<dc:creator>Jackie Yoshi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Aug 2011 08:11:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=15863#comment-531936</guid>
		<description>This really really disturbs me. Doctors should not have this kind of control over patients, it&#039;s like the Anti-Hippocratic society from the horror film Anatomy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This really really disturbs me. Doctors should not have this kind of control over patients, it&#8217;s like the Anti-Hippocratic society from the horror film Anatomy.</p>
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		<title>By: ginger</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/11/20/guest-post-utah-ob-practice-declares-its-misogyny-up-front/comment-page-1/#comment-467229</link>
		<dc:creator>ginger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:09:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=15863#comment-467229</guid>
		<description>I am late to the party, but I could never choose a care provider that lacks basic knowledge of evidence based care.  While I do not use the Bradley method, their rate of vaginal birth seems excellent, and to be commended.  And the overwhelming evidence on the presence of a doula?  Just having one sit in the room lowers the incidence of intervention.  So, when I read this sign, I take it to mean &quot;we will manage your birth, and are not interested in ways to help you have the safest birth possible.  We would rather just do an emergency section than encourage a birthing mother to have her baby naturally or vaginally.&quot;  This practice ignores the facts, for whatever misguided reason.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am late to the party, but I could never choose a care provider that lacks basic knowledge of evidence based care.  While I do not use the Bradley method, their rate of vaginal birth seems excellent, and to be commended.  And the overwhelming evidence on the presence of a doula?  Just having one sit in the room lowers the incidence of intervention.  So, when I read this sign, I take it to mean &#8220;we will manage your birth, and are not interested in ways to help you have the safest birth possible.  We would rather just do an emergency section than encourage a birthing mother to have her baby naturally or vaginally.&#8221;  This practice ignores the facts, for whatever misguided reason.</p>
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		<title>By: shorelines</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/11/20/guest-post-utah-ob-practice-declares-its-misogyny-up-front/comment-page-1/#comment-360455</link>
		<dc:creator>shorelines</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Aug 2010 00:38:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=15863#comment-360455</guid>
		<description>You seem to know nothing at all about the Bradley Method.  Perhaps a quick google search will fill you in.  I&#039;ll give you a hint - it is nothing more than natural childbirth education where the husband/partner is trained to actively coach to mother through labor.  Real radical.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You seem to know nothing at all about the Bradley Method.  Perhaps a quick google search will fill you in.  I&#8217;ll give you a hint &#8211; it is nothing more than natural childbirth education where the husband/partner is trained to actively coach to mother through labor.  Real radical.</p>
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		<title>By: karinova</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/11/20/guest-post-utah-ob-practice-declares-its-misogyny-up-front/comment-page-1/#comment-360398</link>
		<dc:creator>karinova</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Aug 2010 21:36:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=15863#comment-360398</guid>
		<description>Umm... not helpful.
Want to elaborate?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Umm&#8230; not helpful.<br />
Want to elaborate?</p>
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		<title>By: mom2gcnj</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/11/20/guest-post-utah-ob-practice-declares-its-misogyny-up-front/comment-page-1/#comment-324497</link>
		<dc:creator>mom2gcnj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jun 2010 02:36:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=15863#comment-324497</guid>
		<description>Yes - thank you!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes &#8211; thank you!</p>
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		<title>By: mom2gcnj</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/11/20/guest-post-utah-ob-practice-declares-its-misogyny-up-front/comment-page-1/#comment-324473</link>
		<dc:creator>mom2gcnj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jun 2010 02:05:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=15863#comment-324473</guid>
		<description>some research on your part may be in order</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>some research on your part may be in order</p>
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		<title>By: Sane mother</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/11/20/guest-post-utah-ob-practice-declares-its-misogyny-up-front/comment-page-1/#comment-165873</link>
		<dc:creator>Sane mother</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Dec 2009 11:38:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=15863#comment-165873</guid>
		<description>When I first read this post I went &quot;Fuck, don&#039;t tell me this place is turning all NATURAL BIRTH OR ELSE like Hoyden About Town with its shaming of any woman who doesn&#039;t have a dangerous natural birth. So I&#039;m glad to see that Laurelhed is responsible and that there is only one blogger in the Universe that natural birth obsessed and stupid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I first read this post I went &#8220;Fuck, don&#8217;t tell me this place is turning all NATURAL BIRTH OR ELSE like Hoyden About Town with its shaming of any woman who doesn&#8217;t have a dangerous natural birth. So I&#8217;m glad to see that Laurelhed is responsible and that there is only one blogger in the Universe that natural birth obsessed and stupid.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Kaufman</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/11/20/guest-post-utah-ob-practice-declares-its-misogyny-up-front/comment-page-1/#comment-159173</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Kaufman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 16:04:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=15863#comment-159173</guid>
		<description>&quot;There is a good reason why more and more women are choosing home deliveries and midwives.&quot;

In the usa at least more women are not choosing home deliveries.  The 2005 CDC national vital statistics report on births gives the out of hospital (birth center and home birth) rate as 1% and says this has been stable &quot;over the past several decades&quot;.  See page 18, &quot;place of delivery&quot; of http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr56/nvsr56_06.pdf

From the same report we can see the numbers for midwives: a peak in 2002 at 8.1%, falling to 7.9% by 2005.

So I would say &quot;more and more women are choosing home deliveries and midwives&quot; is false for the usa.

World wide, I would guess it is also false, as the world&#039;s population is becoming more urban and historically that has meant a heavy shift from home births to hospital births, but I don&#039;t have data on this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;There is a good reason why more and more women are choosing home deliveries and midwives.&#8221;</p>
<p>In the usa at least more women are not choosing home deliveries.  The 2005 CDC national vital statistics report on births gives the out of hospital (birth center and home birth) rate as 1% and says this has been stable &#8220;over the past several decades&#8221;.  See page 18, &#8220;place of delivery&#8221; of <a href="http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr56/nvsr56_06.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr56/nvsr56_06.pdf</a></p>
<p>From the same report we can see the numbers for midwives: a peak in 2002 at 8.1%, falling to 7.9% by 2005.</p>
<p>So I would say &#8220;more and more women are choosing home deliveries and midwives&#8221; is false for the usa.</p>
<p>World wide, I would guess it is also false, as the world&#8217;s population is becoming more urban and historically that has meant a heavy shift from home births to hospital births, but I don&#8217;t have data on this.</p>
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		<title>By: Decius</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/11/20/guest-post-utah-ob-practice-declares-its-misogyny-up-front/comment-page-1/#comment-150765</link>
		<dc:creator>Decius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 22:09:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=15863#comment-150765</guid>
		<description>If I accept (and, having breifly reviewed the easily available research, I accept it without prejudice) that the medical evidence is overwhelmingly supportive of these things, then it&#039;s pretty clear: This facility has a questionable philosophy and should not be used by anyone for any reason.

They have chosen to take a philosophical position on healthcare that is contradicted by facts about patient welfare. They &quot;Care about the quality of patients&#039; deliveries&quot; and are &quot;Concerned about the welfare&quot; of teh babbys. They obviously don&#039;t want to &quot;Improve the quality of patients&#039; deliveries.&quot; or &quot;Maximize the welfare&quot; of the as yet unborn child; they want to control it and provide mediocore care.

I can&#039;t fault them morally for that. I fully support the right of doctors to control their practice and what services they are willing to provide, for any reason. However, people have a right to choose doctors who perform the procedures they want. In this case, choose another doctor.

If all of the doctors that you can find refuse the same procedure, then you do not have the right to have a doctor perform that procedure. Their right to control their actions is the controlling factor. Conversely, you have the right to refuse any medical care, including lifesaving care, based on your right to control your own actions.

A few small exceptions are left for such things as discrimination and mentally unsound patients, and the law varies from morality in places, but the Aspen Women’s Center seems to have gotten something right: &quot;We will not provide these services, and this is how you get somewhere that will.&quot; Ideally, they should say so in a less &quot;If you ask about this, we will give you to evil, mean strangers who use questioned practices.&quot; manner. Or, you know, catch up with current medical research. Because I seriously doubt that there is a real philosophical objection to the practices listed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I accept (and, having breifly reviewed the easily available research, I accept it without prejudice) that the medical evidence is overwhelmingly supportive of these things, then it&#8217;s pretty clear: This facility has a questionable philosophy and should not be used by anyone for any reason.</p>
<p>They have chosen to take a philosophical position on healthcare that is contradicted by facts about patient welfare. They &#8220;Care about the quality of patients&#8217; deliveries&#8221; and are &#8220;Concerned about the welfare&#8221; of teh babbys. They obviously don&#8217;t want to &#8220;Improve the quality of patients&#8217; deliveries.&#8221; or &#8220;Maximize the welfare&#8221; of the as yet unborn child; they want to control it and provide mediocore care.</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t fault them morally for that. I fully support the right of doctors to control their practice and what services they are willing to provide, for any reason. However, people have a right to choose doctors who perform the procedures they want. In this case, choose another doctor.</p>
<p>If all of the doctors that you can find refuse the same procedure, then you do not have the right to have a doctor perform that procedure. Their right to control their actions is the controlling factor. Conversely, you have the right to refuse any medical care, including lifesaving care, based on your right to control your own actions.</p>
<p>A few small exceptions are left for such things as discrimination and mentally unsound patients, and the law varies from morality in places, but the Aspen Women’s Center seems to have gotten something right: &#8220;We will not provide these services, and this is how you get somewhere that will.&#8221; Ideally, they should say so in a less &#8220;If you ask about this, we will give you to evil, mean strangers who use questioned practices.&#8221; manner. Or, you know, catch up with current medical research. Because I seriously doubt that there is a real philosophical objection to the practices listed.</p>
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		<title>By: Sacha</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/11/20/guest-post-utah-ob-practice-declares-its-misogyny-up-front/comment-page-1/#comment-150660</link>
		<dc:creator>Sacha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 18:49:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=15863#comment-150660</guid>
		<description>Part of why it&#039;s hard to compare the numbers may well be due to the delivery of healthcare between the US and other countries. 

Decisions concerning intervention in birth look different with the value of hindsight, and perhaps we are inclined to err on the side of caution with regard to birth. Emotions run high, and with the potential of major morbidity and mortality for the infant on the cards, most parents would fold at the first whiff of danger. Perhaps this illustrates the importance of high quality postgraduate medical training, with obstetricians who are effective communicators more than anything else. 

In the United Kingdom we have the advantage of a hundred years of maternal mortality studies, and it&#039;s obvious that the rising medical intervention is the price we pay for the decreases we make in maternal deaths. 31% is certainly an average much higher than we see in the UK. 25% seems to be the most oft-quoted average; although obviously this depends on the individual units. It does; however, have to be weighed against the fact that we used to see 65 women per year die of obstructed labour, which would be unheard of in current times. 

All of us [doctors] have to justify our decisions, whether that is to a person&#039;s family or to court in the event of litigation. Performing medical intervention is not without risk, and we must be prepared to justify performing and witholding intervention.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Part of why it&#8217;s hard to compare the numbers may well be due to the delivery of healthcare between the US and other countries. </p>
<p>Decisions concerning intervention in birth look different with the value of hindsight, and perhaps we are inclined to err on the side of caution with regard to birth. Emotions run high, and with the potential of major morbidity and mortality for the infant on the cards, most parents would fold at the first whiff of danger. Perhaps this illustrates the importance of high quality postgraduate medical training, with obstetricians who are effective communicators more than anything else. </p>
<p>In the United Kingdom we have the advantage of a hundred years of maternal mortality studies, and it&#8217;s obvious that the rising medical intervention is the price we pay for the decreases we make in maternal deaths. 31% is certainly an average much higher than we see in the UK. 25% seems to be the most oft-quoted average; although obviously this depends on the individual units. It does; however, have to be weighed against the fact that we used to see 65 women per year die of obstructed labour, which would be unheard of in current times. </p>
<p>All of us [doctors] have to justify our decisions, whether that is to a person&#8217;s family or to court in the event of litigation. Performing medical intervention is not without risk, and we must be prepared to justify performing and witholding intervention.</p>
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		<title>By: Mashow</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/11/20/guest-post-utah-ob-practice-declares-its-misogyny-up-front/comment-page-1/#comment-149798</link>
		<dc:creator>Mashow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 20:49:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=15863#comment-149798</guid>
		<description>The medical system is full of paternalism. There are plenty of people who willing place complete faith in their doctor. Medicine is complicated. You kind of have to put you trust in the expert. But that trust should be limited.

You have to recognize that doctors are human; they make mistakes, and not everything they do is in your best interests. Take c-sections for example. For the doctor, it&#039;s quick and easy birth. For the woman, it&#039;s fraught with complications - there&#039;s always a risk when you cut someone open, and the recovery takes much longer. I&#039;m not saying that c-sections shouldn&#039;t be done, merely that they are done when they are not needed. 

Doctors are seeing a lot of patients. They&#039;re not thinking about your comfort or your emotional needs when your giving birth, even though a situation of high stress can promote complications and difficulties in the birthing process. 

An overburdened medical system is resulting in assembly line medicine - treat them like patients, not people, and get them out as soon as possible. If the doctors could put you on a conveyor belt, attach you to machines that would do the job for them, and merely sit behind a window and press buttons, you bet they would.

The result of assembly line medicine is the dehumanization of the patient. Patient has illness. Treat the illness. Send the patient home. 

This formula, already problematic, is still more problematic when you take something like pregnancy which is not an illness at all. Pregnancy can come with complications that do require a doctor&#039;s presence, but the doctor is not the one giving birth. The pregnant woman is the one who is doing the work. The focus should be ensuring that her working conditions are optimal, not the doctor&#039;s. For example, it doesn&#039;t make sense for a woman to give birth on her back, because then she&#039;s working against gravity, but being on her back gives the doctor better access, so that&#039;s the norm.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The medical system is full of paternalism. There are plenty of people who willing place complete faith in their doctor. Medicine is complicated. You kind of have to put you trust in the expert. But that trust should be limited.</p>
<p>You have to recognize that doctors are human; they make mistakes, and not everything they do is in your best interests. Take c-sections for example. For the doctor, it&#8217;s quick and easy birth. For the woman, it&#8217;s fraught with complications &#8211; there&#8217;s always a risk when you cut someone open, and the recovery takes much longer. I&#8217;m not saying that c-sections shouldn&#8217;t be done, merely that they are done when they are not needed. </p>
<p>Doctors are seeing a lot of patients. They&#8217;re not thinking about your comfort or your emotional needs when your giving birth, even though a situation of high stress can promote complications and difficulties in the birthing process. </p>
<p>An overburdened medical system is resulting in assembly line medicine &#8211; treat them like patients, not people, and get them out as soon as possible. If the doctors could put you on a conveyor belt, attach you to machines that would do the job for them, and merely sit behind a window and press buttons, you bet they would.</p>
<p>The result of assembly line medicine is the dehumanization of the patient. Patient has illness. Treat the illness. Send the patient home. </p>
<p>This formula, already problematic, is still more problematic when you take something like pregnancy which is not an illness at all. Pregnancy can come with complications that do require a doctor&#8217;s presence, but the doctor is not the one giving birth. The pregnant woman is the one who is doing the work. The focus should be ensuring that her working conditions are optimal, not the doctor&#8217;s. For example, it doesn&#8217;t make sense for a woman to give birth on her back, because then she&#8217;s working against gravity, but being on her back gives the doctor better access, so that&#8217;s the norm.</p>
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		<title>By: Going unassisted&#8230; &#171; Massachusetts Friends of Midwives Blog</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/11/20/guest-post-utah-ob-practice-declares-its-misogyny-up-front/comment-page-1/#comment-149638</link>
		<dc:creator>Going unassisted&#8230; &#171; Massachusetts Friends of Midwives Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 17:33:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=15863#comment-149638</guid>
		<description>[...] of interventions: This craziness makes me grateful I didn&#8217;t birth in [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of interventions: This craziness makes me grateful I didn&#8217;t birth in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Maggie</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/11/20/guest-post-utah-ob-practice-declares-its-misogyny-up-front/comment-page-1/#comment-148413</link>
		<dc:creator>Maggie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 15:46:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=15863#comment-148413</guid>
		<description>Not a study, but here&#039;s a really terrifying story from a (previously) extremely religious woman.

http://nolongerquivering.com/2009/07/24/vyckies-story-part-20-though-he-slay-me-again/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not a study, but here&#8217;s a really terrifying story from a (previously) extremely religious woman.</p>
<p><a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/2009/07/24/vyckies-story-part-20-though-he-slay-me-again/" rel="nofollow">http://nolongerquivering.com/2009/07/24/vyckies-story-part-20-though-he-slay-me-again/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Shana</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/11/20/guest-post-utah-ob-practice-declares-its-misogyny-up-front/comment-page-1/#comment-148402</link>
		<dc:creator>Shana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 15:28:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=15863#comment-148402</guid>
		<description>OB/GYNs pay the highest (by far) malpractice insurance premiums. When things do not go as the mother planned, she sues. When the doctor must take extraordinary steps to save the mother and/or child, and those actions fall outside of the birth contract; people sue. These doctors are literally covering their bums. While I think it is a sad statement that women have less options, I understand the need to curb malpractice claims as they drive up the cost of care and clinic operation. The best way to circumvent these issues, in my opinion, is not to disallow certain practices, but to have a pre-delivery counseling session that involves birthing options and signing of an informed consent and any necessary waivers to cover the physicians if problems ensue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OB/GYNs pay the highest (by far) malpractice insurance premiums. When things do not go as the mother planned, she sues. When the doctor must take extraordinary steps to save the mother and/or child, and those actions fall outside of the birth contract; people sue. These doctors are literally covering their bums. While I think it is a sad statement that women have less options, I understand the need to curb malpractice claims as they drive up the cost of care and clinic operation. The best way to circumvent these issues, in my opinion, is not to disallow certain practices, but to have a pre-delivery counseling session that involves birthing options and signing of an informed consent and any necessary waivers to cover the physicians if problems ensue.</p>
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		<title>By: karinova</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/11/20/guest-post-utah-ob-practice-declares-its-misogyny-up-front/comment-page-1/#comment-147903</link>
		<dc:creator>karinova</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 01:49:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=15863#comment-147903</guid>
		<description>Seems like maybe a better solution for a birth center that has this concern (which is totally understandable) might be to: a) suss out and subsequently recommend a few well-trained, properly insured doulas/midwives they &lt;i&gt;are&lt;/i&gt; willing to work with; and/or, if they&#039;re able, b) address the underlying reasons that these women feel the need for outside advocates and birth contracts and such. 

Regarding the first point, I&#039;m imagining a statement to the effect of &quot;we don&#039;t actually recommend any of this, but if you truly feel you must, at least these people won&#039;t actually hurt you.&quot; Wouldn&#039;t that actually be better for everyone? They keep the patient, the patient is safe &lt;i&gt;and&lt;/i&gt; her wishes are reasonably accommodated (which maybe goes to the second point), and they untrained midwives are starved of victims.


[Disclosure: I&#039;m not a doctor, nor have I been pregnant. And I know nothing of the &quot;Bradley Method.&quot; It seems perfectly sensible to refuse to do that. Not without reams of waivers, anyway.]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seems like maybe a better solution for a birth center that has this concern (which is totally understandable) might be to: a) suss out and subsequently recommend a few well-trained, properly insured doulas/midwives they <i>are</i> willing to work with; and/or, if they&#8217;re able, b) address the underlying reasons that these women feel the need for outside advocates and birth contracts and such. </p>
<p>Regarding the first point, I&#8217;m imagining a statement to the effect of &#8220;we don&#8217;t actually recommend any of this, but if you truly feel you must, at least these people won&#8217;t actually hurt you.&#8221; Wouldn&#8217;t that actually be better for everyone? They keep the patient, the patient is safe <i>and</i> her wishes are reasonably accommodated (which maybe goes to the second point), and they untrained midwives are starved of victims.</p>
<p>[Disclosure: I'm not a doctor, nor have I been pregnant. And I know nothing of the "Bradley Method." It seems perfectly sensible to refuse to do that. Not without reams of waivers, anyway.]</p>
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