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	<title>Comments on: Apes in Disguise</title>
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	<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2008/10/04/apes-in-disguise/</link>
	<description>Sociological Images encourages people to exercise and develop their sociological imaginations with discussions of compelling visuals that span the breadth of sociological inquiry.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 25 May 2012 04:38:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Laura</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2008/10/04/apes-in-disguise/comment-page-1/#comment-3499</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 16:11:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=3104#comment-3499</guid>
		<description>Gamzu- I think the tagline in the ad, &quot;Brings out the human in men.&quot; is the dead giveaway. It really implies that before shaving, these are still men, but not human ones. 

Only once they do something associated with cleanliness and civilization, shaving, do they become &quot;human.&quot; 

Furthermore, beside the non-human face is &quot;8:00 AM&quot; and the human face is &quot;8:06 AM,&quot; clearly implying a &quot;before-after&quot; positioning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gamzu- I think the tagline in the ad, &#8220;Brings out the human in men.&#8221; is the dead giveaway. It really implies that before shaving, these are still men, but not human ones. </p>
<p>Only once they do something associated with cleanliness and civilization, shaving, do they become &#8220;human.&#8221; </p>
<p>Furthermore, beside the non-human face is &#8220;8:00 AM&#8221; and the human face is &#8220;8:06 AM,&#8221; clearly implying a &#8220;before-after&#8221; positioning.</p>
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		<title>By: Will</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2008/10/04/apes-in-disguise/comment-page-1/#comment-3479</link>
		<dc:creator>Will</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2008 14:51:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=3104#comment-3479</guid>
		<description>Couple of comments: First, as I understand it, the purpose of this site is to inspire debate, not outrage, so comments about &quot;the cabal&quot; are kind of missing the point (and yes, I understand it was a joke).

Second, often, not always, but often, the message received is more important than the message intended (see, for instance, the Obama sock monkey debacle).

Third, having a sense of humor is great. I LOL&#039;d at the second pictures. Being aware that we&#039;re being fed a stream of messages that reinforce, or challenge, our existing prejudices is also great. Being aware of how we&#039;re digesting those messages is nice too.

Fourth, as a beard-wearing member of society, I guess I should be a little upset at this. But what I think is most important is that the cosmetic industry has made a gigantic fortune by convincing women they need to pluck, shave, wax, oil, cream, moisturize and paint every inch of their bodies. This is, in my opinion, just another foray into trying to sell the same idea to men, because that will double their incomes. Admittedly, that&#039;s not very subtle, sociologically speaking, but that&#039;s what I take away.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Couple of comments: First, as I understand it, the purpose of this site is to inspire debate, not outrage, so comments about &#8220;the cabal&#8221; are kind of missing the point (and yes, I understand it was a joke).</p>
<p>Second, often, not always, but often, the message received is more important than the message intended (see, for instance, the Obama sock monkey debacle).</p>
<p>Third, having a sense of humor is great. I LOL&#8217;d at the second pictures. Being aware that we&#8217;re being fed a stream of messages that reinforce, or challenge, our existing prejudices is also great. Being aware of how we&#8217;re digesting those messages is nice too.</p>
<p>Fourth, as a beard-wearing member of society, I guess I should be a little upset at this. But what I think is most important is that the cosmetic industry has made a gigantic fortune by convincing women they need to pluck, shave, wax, oil, cream, moisturize and paint every inch of their bodies. This is, in my opinion, just another foray into trying to sell the same idea to men, because that will double their incomes. Admittedly, that&#8217;s not very subtle, sociologically speaking, but that&#8217;s what I take away.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2008/10/04/apes-in-disguise/comment-page-1/#comment-3477</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2008 14:43:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=3104#comment-3477</guid>
		<description>Imagine the discussion if one of the models was not Caucasian.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Imagine the discussion if one of the models was not Caucasian.</p>
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		<title>By: Drewzu</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2008/10/04/apes-in-disguise/comment-page-1/#comment-3476</link>
		<dc:creator>Drewzu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2008 13:18:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=3104#comment-3476</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s a point well taken that what the creators intend may be far from how anybody in particular actually interprets it. Certainly we&#039;ve all over our lives developed a set of personal associations - some things will mean this or that to us, that don&#039;t really have that connotation to anyone else.

So in that sense, I guess we&#039;re just left looking at what possible interpretations may be read from any given source, and what the potential implications of such a reading are. 

And while individuals have their own personal interpretations, it might be that certain meanings are *more* prevalent in a given population. 

And I would think a lot of meanings aren&#039;t the kind that people would see and actively think about, but rather are the kind that a person would see, and simply register as being in line with, or converse to their expectations - and in that way reinforcing those expectations. Perhaps not everyone has the time to consider and discuss the meanings of these things! Luckily for me, I have other things to procrastinate from doing!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a point well taken that what the creators intend may be far from how anybody in particular actually interprets it. Certainly we&#8217;ve all over our lives developed a set of personal associations &#8211; some things will mean this or that to us, that don&#8217;t really have that connotation to anyone else.</p>
<p>So in that sense, I guess we&#8217;re just left looking at what possible interpretations may be read from any given source, and what the potential implications of such a reading are. </p>
<p>And while individuals have their own personal interpretations, it might be that certain meanings are *more* prevalent in a given population. </p>
<p>And I would think a lot of meanings aren&#8217;t the kind that people would see and actively think about, but rather are the kind that a person would see, and simply register as being in line with, or converse to their expectations &#8211; and in that way reinforcing those expectations. Perhaps not everyone has the time to consider and discuss the meanings of these things! Luckily for me, I have other things to procrastinate from doing!</p>
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		<title>By: Village Idiot</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2008/10/04/apes-in-disguise/comment-page-1/#comment-3475</link>
		<dc:creator>Village Idiot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2008 10:32:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=3104#comment-3475</guid>
		<description>One thing&#039;s for sure, Braun isn&#039;t selling any more electric razors to creationists...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing&#8217;s for sure, Braun isn&#8217;t selling any more electric razors to creationists&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Gamzu</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2008/10/04/apes-in-disguise/comment-page-1/#comment-3471</link>
		<dc:creator>Gamzu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2008 01:10:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=3104#comment-3471</guid>
		<description>But Drewzu

Isn&#039;t that meaning left up to the interpretation of the recipient? I mean yes the creator may have had one code but mine might be entirely different. One viewere sees a representation of fetishizing biology.

I see a funny man that resembles a chimpanzee? The creator may have seen something else.

This might be what you meant by all prima facie coding with all kinds of meanings. But I haven&#039;t had a chance to look up &quot;prima facie&quot; yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But Drewzu</p>
<p>Isn&#8217;t that meaning left up to the interpretation of the recipient? I mean yes the creator may have had one code but mine might be entirely different. One viewere sees a representation of fetishizing biology.</p>
<p>I see a funny man that resembles a chimpanzee? The creator may have seen something else.</p>
<p>This might be what you meant by all prima facie coding with all kinds of meanings. But I haven&#8217;t had a chance to look up &#8220;prima facie&#8221; yet.</p>
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		<title>By: Dubi</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2008/10/04/apes-in-disguise/comment-page-1/#comment-3467</link>
		<dc:creator>Dubi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Oct 2008 23:56:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=3104#comment-3467</guid>
		<description>Penny, no, it&#039;s just a joke, about how monkey-ish men look like before they shave. I had hoped at least MEN are still allowed a sense of humour, now no-one is allowed to have it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Penny, no, it&#8217;s just a joke, about how monkey-ish men look like before they shave. I had hoped at least MEN are still allowed a sense of humour, now no-one is allowed to have it?</p>
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		<title>By: Drewzu</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2008/10/04/apes-in-disguise/comment-page-1/#comment-3463</link>
		<dc:creator>Drewzu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Oct 2008 21:02:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=3104#comment-3463</guid>
		<description>I have been deficient! In understanding and communicating. Quite right.

I suppose I did not state a point well. Rather than seeing one of those cases or not one of those cases, perhaps there is no message that is immune to the infusion of meaning from the circumstances/society surrounding its creation. 

I would suggest that an image *cannot* be made that does *not* reflect the meanings already coded etc... It is simply for us to be alert to and critical of what those messages are. Or to state it positively, instead of double-negatively - every image/communication issued by a person is prima facie coded with all kinds of meaning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have been deficient! In understanding and communicating. Quite right.</p>
<p>I suppose I did not state a point well. Rather than seeing one of those cases or not one of those cases, perhaps there is no message that is immune to the infusion of meaning from the circumstances/society surrounding its creation. </p>
<p>I would suggest that an image *cannot* be made that does *not* reflect the meanings already coded etc&#8230; It is simply for us to be alert to and critical of what those messages are. Or to state it positively, instead of double-negatively &#8211; every image/communication issued by a person is prima facie coded with all kinds of meaning.</p>
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		<title>By: Gamzu</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2008/10/04/apes-in-disguise/comment-page-1/#comment-3462</link>
		<dc:creator>Gamzu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Oct 2008 19:39:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=3104#comment-3462</guid>
		<description>Drewzu,

I already stated that &quot;cabal&quot; was hyperbole. I know Lisa didn&#039;t imply that. And I really agree with your statement that sometimes an ad just happens to reflect the meanings that are already coded etc...

I just don&#039;t think this is one of those cases.

You see, the shape and facial features of the monkeys are similar to the men they are juxtaposed with. That&#039;s the funny part. See the men are the monkeys after they have been shaved with the Braun razor.

Funny no?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Drewzu,</p>
<p>I already stated that &#8220;cabal&#8221; was hyperbole. I know Lisa didn&#8217;t imply that. And I really agree with your statement that sometimes an ad just happens to reflect the meanings that are already coded etc&#8230;</p>
<p>I just don&#8217;t think this is one of those cases.</p>
<p>You see, the shape and facial features of the monkeys are similar to the men they are juxtaposed with. That&#8217;s the funny part. See the men are the monkeys after they have been shaved with the Braun razor.</p>
<p>Funny no?</p>
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		<title>By: Fernando</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2008/10/04/apes-in-disguise/comment-page-1/#comment-3461</link>
		<dc:creator>Fernando</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Oct 2008 19:14:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=3104#comment-3461</guid>
		<description>I think this ad is more about how facial hair is a non-human thing rather than something that &quot;fetishizes biology as a causal agent to explain everything and anything (i.e., evolutionary psychology, neurology, hormones, and the y chromosome) and (2) likes to suggest that men’s bad sexual behavior and poor domestic habits really can’t be helped&quot;.

Besides, what &quot;fetishizing&quot; biology even means? And evolutionary psychology, neurology and whatever are not an attempt to explain everything and anything, that is a simplistic vision of those things. 

You know those very subtle analasys are sort of like a roscharch test. They tell more about the shrink than the patient.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this ad is more about how facial hair is a non-human thing rather than something that &#8220;fetishizes biology as a causal agent to explain everything and anything (i.e., evolutionary psychology, neurology, hormones, and the y chromosome) and (2) likes to suggest that men’s bad sexual behavior and poor domestic habits really can’t be helped&#8221;.</p>
<p>Besides, what &#8220;fetishizing&#8221; biology even means? And evolutionary psychology, neurology and whatever are not an attempt to explain everything and anything, that is a simplistic vision of those things. </p>
<p>You know those very subtle analasys are sort of like a roscharch test. They tell more about the shrink than the patient.</p>
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		<title>By: Drewzu</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2008/10/04/apes-in-disguise/comment-page-1/#comment-3460</link>
		<dc:creator>Drewzu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Oct 2008 18:58:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=3104#comment-3460</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s not about a secret cabal!

There doesn&#039;t need to be a secret cabal! The meanings are already coded in the dominant discourses of our culture.

Sometimes there is an evil cabal of marketers seizing upon that.

Other times somebody just comes up with an ad that happens to *reflect* and reproduce those meanings, without the intention to do so.

A person can still propagate stereotypes and prejudices without meaning to or being aware of the fact they are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s not about a secret cabal!</p>
<p>There doesn&#8217;t need to be a secret cabal! The meanings are already coded in the dominant discourses of our culture.</p>
<p>Sometimes there is an evil cabal of marketers seizing upon that.</p>
<p>Other times somebody just comes up with an ad that happens to *reflect* and reproduce those meanings, without the intention to do so.</p>
<p>A person can still propagate stereotypes and prejudices without meaning to or being aware of the fact they are.</p>
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		<title>By: Penny</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2008/10/04/apes-in-disguise/comment-page-1/#comment-3455</link>
		<dc:creator>Penny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Oct 2008 14:47:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=3104#comment-3455</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s also the explicit message that facial hair is somehow nonhuman--that you have to shave to &quot;bring out&quot; the human face.  Huh?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s also the explicit message that facial hair is somehow nonhuman&#8211;that you have to shave to &#8220;bring out&#8221; the human face.  Huh?</p>
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		<title>By: Gamzu</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2008/10/04/apes-in-disguise/comment-page-1/#comment-3452</link>
		<dc:creator>Gamzu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Oct 2008 14:01:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=3104#comment-3452</guid>
		<description>Do you know how sexist the term &quot;strawman&quot; is? By suggesting that this type of argument is somehow only made by straw people of the male gender is a clear demonstration of male generalizations.

Have you ever heard of a &quot;strawwoman&quot;?

Ha-just kidding- you are right though about the &quot;strawman&quot;. I knew it when I wrote it.  Let&#039;s call it hyperbole. I really do enjoy this blog and it often points out trends I would have missed in my casual observations.

I just don&#039;t think this is one of them. I think this is just a silly ad with nice glossy graphics.

Like Freud said: &quot;Sometimes a gorilla shaving with a Braun electric razor is just a gorilla shaving with a Braun electric razor&quot;

BTW we are only all apes if you are not a &quot;maverick&quot; from Alaska.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do you know how sexist the term &#8220;strawman&#8221; is? By suggesting that this type of argument is somehow only made by straw people of the male gender is a clear demonstration of male generalizations.</p>
<p>Have you ever heard of a &#8220;strawwoman&#8221;?</p>
<p>Ha-just kidding- you are right though about the &#8220;strawman&#8221;. I knew it when I wrote it.  Let&#8217;s call it hyperbole. I really do enjoy this blog and it often points out trends I would have missed in my casual observations.</p>
<p>I just don&#8217;t think this is one of them. I think this is just a silly ad with nice glossy graphics.</p>
<p>Like Freud said: &#8220;Sometimes a gorilla shaving with a Braun electric razor is just a gorilla shaving with a Braun electric razor&#8221;</p>
<p>BTW we are only all apes if you are not a &#8220;maverick&#8221; from Alaska.</p>
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		<title>By: mordicai</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2008/10/04/apes-in-disguise/comment-page-1/#comment-3451</link>
		<dc:creator>mordicai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Oct 2008 13:48:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=3104#comment-3451</guid>
		<description>Gamzu-- the idea of a cabal is a strawman argument that a lot of people who make excuses for negative social trends trot out.  I don&#039;t necessarily agree with this particular critical reading of the ad, but in light of those pig-condom ads, it isn&#039;t unreasonable.

I do want to point out that humans are all apes anyhow though.  Ha.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gamzu&#8211; the idea of a cabal is a strawman argument that a lot of people who make excuses for negative social trends trot out.  I don&#8217;t necessarily agree with this particular critical reading of the ad, but in light of those pig-condom ads, it isn&#8217;t unreasonable.</p>
<p>I do want to point out that humans are all apes anyhow though.  Ha.</p>
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		<title>By: Gamzu</title>
		<link>http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2008/10/04/apes-in-disguise/comment-page-1/#comment-3447</link>
		<dc:creator>Gamzu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Oct 2008 12:55:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/?p=3104#comment-3447</guid>
		<description>I enjoy this blog as much for the subtle sociological trends it points out as for the ridiculous extremes people go to in order to see trends.

Maybe this is just a silly ad comparing different facial expressions to monkeys and gorillas. Maybe there aren&#039;t any hidden sociological meanings at all

Maybe there is no secret cabal of sexist ad executives trying to push a misogynistic agenda here.

I don&#039;t know, maybe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I enjoy this blog as much for the subtle sociological trends it points out as for the ridiculous extremes people go to in order to see trends.</p>
<p>Maybe this is just a silly ad comparing different facial expressions to monkeys and gorillas. Maybe there aren&#8217;t any hidden sociological meanings at all</p>
<p>Maybe there is no secret cabal of sexist ad executives trying to push a misogynistic agenda here.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know, maybe.</p>
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